Entrek Survivor Video Testing

[QuietBearr]

I made a video today testing out the Survivor on some hard knotted Aspen, batoning with both wood and a claw hammer.

Needless to say it ROCKED! :rockon:

Here it is:

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I was shocked that after 45 minutes of going through wood, it still had a hair shaving, paper curly-q slicing edge!

And I have been talking to the company about their heat and quench treatment, this is what Ray Ennis has to say about why the edge performs so well:

The reason our 440C performs so well is that we spend the money to have them sub-zero stabilized (quenched) This process actually costs more than the heat treat itself. You will find that most companies only are concerned with making the knife as cheap as possible so the owners and if they have any the investors make more money. That is why so many knives are made overseas. In other words money is the reason they make knives. I on the other hand I make knives because i am a knife maker, thats what i do. My focus is to make the best knife i can and make it affordable enough that when someone wants to buy a premium knife they can. It sounds a bit corny but I am kind of old fashioned about certain things.

The more I learn, the more I love!

I would highly recommend it, but for all you knife testers, wait and see the video!

I further used it more tonight making a new pressure flaker, and a new Ish Stick, and it is still curly-q making hair shaving sharp!

Unbelievable to see this performance from a 440C blade.

If they can do this with 440C, imagine what they could do with a steel like D2 or even 1095 (I am a more non stainless guy over stainless, you might be able to tell from my channel).

[QuietBearr]

So, after that test I am gonna test it again for tactical purposes, I wondered if anyone had any ideas as far as possible tests that would test it out "tactically"

Ray Ennis is also very interested in seeing how it will perform, maybe more curious than me lol.

So, any ideas for tactical tests?:confused::confused:

[xxo]

Thanks for another great vid!

That Entrek sorta reminds me of one of my favorite knives, the Foster Knives Wayne Fears Survival knife.

Real deal USA made 440C given a good HT is a very underrated steel.


I'm kinda tactically incorrect, so I don't have any ideas for your test, but I am sure someone else will have some good suggestions.

[Noss]

QuietBearr, Welcome to the forum. :thumb:

Love the video :rockon: Nice production. That knife looks like a tough one.

Some ideas for a tactical knife test ? Maybe see if you can do pull ups on the knife inserted all the way into a slot. I saw this done on the discovery channel during some military knife testing footage. This is just one idea of course. To me tactical testing is going to involve thinking outside the box and how one can use the knife to gain the advantage in a situation. It's going to be different than using the knife for camping activities. You may break or damage the knife during this type of testing but this is just part of it. You should learn a ton about the knife and it's full capabilities that you can't find out during simple outdoor type of testing.

[QuietBearr]

Real deal USA made 440C given a good HT is a very underrated steel.

I think it is not only an underrated steel, which I really think that people are becoming steel snobs as of late with all the latest and greatest steels, one of my favs is still 1095, and it has been around forever....

But it is also how they quench the knife:

"The reason our 440C performs so well is that we spend the money to have them sub-zero stabilized (quenched) This process actually costs more than the heat treat itself."

I think that is more the reason, because I have had several other 440C knives, and they didnt hold an edge near as long.

Maybe see if you can do pull ups on the knife inserted all the way into a slot.

That is a very good idea, the problem is that I dont think I can do pullups anymore :p:p

But that is an idea that I am gonna see if I can work around!

I made another video today testing it out a little more, ah, abusive.

Fared very well I think, I did manage to break a tiny bit off the tip, doing a flex test, but I think that was because I didnt have it inserted into the vice far enough, but see for yourself.

I also made an "arm" out of 1.5 inch round wood that is really tough (closet pole, I think it was oak), and beat on it for a while, then I beat it on a steel pipe to test the edge further.

Check out the results, I am very pleased!

Part One:

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Part Two

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Man I sure do think it is one tough knife!

[Noss]

I know I can't do pull ups anymore. This why I don't do this test. :D

I'm watchmen your new videos now.

[Noss]

Awesome videos. :rockon: The knife cut the hell out of the steel bar. A little denting is to be expected but it's good the edge didn't tear out in a half moon shape. You gave it a good abusive run and it held up well. Good job. I think I need to test one of these. :eek: :D

[QuietBearr]

I think so too, you are better at it than me, and I would be very very curious to see how it turned out!

[G. Scott H.]

Awesome videos. :rockon: The knife cut the hell out of the steel bar. A little denting is to be expected but it's good the edge didn't tear out in a half moon shape. You gave it a good abusive run and it held up well. Good job. I think I need to test one of these. :eek: :D

Totally agree. I was expecting to see some half-moons in that blade after you whacked the hell out of that steel tube. That's very impressive. I think you've confirmed that Entreks are superbly heat/cryo treated. :rockon:

[QuietBearr]

Thanks man, I agree, as I was very nervous going into it with the steel bar, and the flex test as well, because my experience with 440C, while being a good knife steel, is that it should not have held up so well.

I was totally expecting a big half moon or shark bite out of the blade. But I also was pretty sure that Ray would fix or replace it if I shipped it to him, that is why I did it, and after the previous days testing, I was a little more confident.

Ray said this about the warranty:

At shows i tell people that if the knife fails for any reason even stupidity i will repair or replace the knife, my option.

That is pretty impressive I think. I dont know if I was being stupid, abusive, or thorough, I guess it depends on your perspective :thumb::thumb:.

[G. Scott H.]

I dont know if I was being stupid, abusive, or thorough, I guess it depends on your perspective :thumb::thumb:.

Not stupid, but definitely abusive and thorough. :D

Your knife looks repairable to me at this point, though it may end up a wee bit shorter at the pointy end. Of course, I'm not a knifemaker or any other kind of expert, so I'll leave that decision to Mr. Ennis. I look forward to seeing what he decides to do with it. Please keep us posted. :cool:

[Noss]

It's not about being stupid. It's about subjecting the knife to real stress. D-testing is about getting the knife to fail and trying to understand the knives limits and properties. The more you know the better. Some see this as stupid but you will always have this. I've been round and round with people on the forums on this issue. The ones who get it, get it. The ones who don't never will.

[QuietBearr]

It's not about being stupid. It's about subjecting the knife to real stress. D-testing is about getting the knife to fail and trying to understand the knives limits and properties. The more you know the better. Some see this as stupid but you will always have this. I've been round and round with people on the forums on this issue. The ones who get it, get it. The ones who don't never will.

Couldnt agree more, I learned a lot from watching your vids for a long time, and of course, my tests where directly out of your vids or at least inspired by them.

After doing this test, and I have tested knives before, but never d-tested them, I have learned a lot, and could honestly say I have more faith in this Entrek than I do in many of my other knives, more expensive or not, even the DuStars. (More faith in the 440C survivor than the D2 Arad)

I am kinda afraid to test out the Arad because of the shipping to Israel is expensive.

As for the warranty, I dont think he was saying I was being stupid, after he watched each video he was amazed and wowed, liking them a lot. And I am assuming that he is going to repair it rather than replace it, which I am totally fine with as well. It is a nice thing for the company to do, standing behind their project when many companies would call it abuse and not take it back.

[jankerson]

Really cool videos. :thumb:

That knife did really well, and cutting the steel was awesome, the edge wasn't really even damaged. :rockon:

[Madnumforce]

The knife seems strong. It's unusual for a 440C steel blade, we used to see this steel on cheaper knives. I guess years of experience, trying different steel supliers and heat treats make the difference. But in fact, cryogenic quenching, as we call it in France, is not so hugely expensive, it represents only a fraction of the final price. I guess you can have the whole cryogenic HT for less than 20 bucks for one blade, considering of course that the more you have to treat, the less you pay per piece. I know that i could have this price if i needed this HT. Personnaly i would advise you to regrind the tip flat grind.

[QuietBearr]

Yea I am going to send it back to him and he is going to do it for me lol.

As for the quenching, if you think about it $20 per blade is pretty pricey still. Yea I mean, its not like a lot, but on a $150 knife that you can get for $100, that is %20 of the price. I would say that is a lot.

[xxo]

cheap knives marked "440C"....translation: the cheapest steel they could find (maybe 420j2 if your lucky), no cryo quench needed because they probably never heat treated it in the first place.

[QuietBearr]

cheap knives marked "440C"....translation: the cheapest steel they could find (maybe 420j2 if your lucky), no cryo quench needed because they probably never heat treated it in the first place.

You mean marked 440 Stainless means it is likely 440A or possibly 440B, likely 440A. If it is marked 440C then it is 440C, 420J2 is not in the 440 family, that is the case when you see blades marked 420 series stainless or just plain stainless steel. Usually then it is 420 or 420J2, unlikely 420HC, usually they are marked as such.

[xxo]

440C is a US steel; they do not make anything in the 440 series in China or Japan.

a cheap knife marked 440 or 440C = cheap crappy steel with a poor HT or not HT at all. A knife that costs $5 WS and less than $2 to make is not going to have a premium steel and HT.

[QuietBearr]

Just because it was created in america, does not mean that that is the only place it is now made for one.

Mtechs are made in china and are made from 440A. They do ship steel internationally you know.

But where did this conversation come from? Entreks are not cheap, made from the best 440C that I have ever experienced, and have great heat treating and cryo quenching.

[Madnumforce]

440C is a US steel; they do not make anything in the 440 series in China or Japan.

a cheap knife marked 440 or 440C = cheap crappy steel with a poor HT or not HT at all. A knife that costs $5 WS and less than $2 to make is not going to have a premium steel and HT.

440 serie is a US norm, it just indicates a certain amount of alloy elements and carbon, in a relatively wide range generally (i saw carbon could vary 0.2%, nickel and chromium 2%, which can make the difference between a well balanced steel and a poor steel), but not the originating country, nor the producting process. 1095 is another american norm, the same steel is called XC95 or XC100 in France, it just means non alloyed middle-high carbon steel. But for exemple 12C27 is not a norm, it's a steel-maker reference, from Sandvik. As well as the N690 Extrema Ratio uses: it's a reference from steel-maker Böhler. This means much more than a national or international norm, as the steel-maker's reputation is known, the production processes are known, the liability of supply and regularity of the steel quality is known, etc... That N690, called in the norm of my country, is X105Cr18Co2Mo, but any maker anywhere on the planet could make a steel that would be designated like that, this will not mean it has the Böhler quality!

[QuietBearr]

440C:

C: .95-1.2
Cr: 16-18
Mn: 1
Mo: .75
Ni: 0
P: .04
Si: 1
S: .03
W: 0
V: 0
N: 0

AUS-10 (10A) (Japanese equivalent, not the same steel, but commonly thought of as the equivalent)

C: .95-1.1
Cr: 13.0-14.5
Mn: 0
Mo: 0.1-0.3
Ni: 0
P: .04
S: 1.0
S: 0
W: 0
V: 0.1-0.25
N: 0

The Chinese equivalents are either 9Cr13MoV or 9Cr18MoV.

You can also look at 1.4125 which is mostly the equivalent as well.

These steels are not exactly the same, but the variances are similar, and the missing ingrediants are offset by the added ingredients. Most people believe that the Chinese steels are not as good as 440C, and the Japanese are either slightly better, slightly worse, or the same depending on who you ask.

So as you can see, the Chinese and Japanese do have equivalent steels (as does europe) to AISI 440C, and as explained above, just because it has an American name, doesn't mean that it is an exclusively American steel that is only used in American knives. Steel ships worldwide.

Another example is D2.

In Europe = 1.2379
Japan = SKD 11
States = D-2
Germany = X153CrMoV12-1
Another Europien Name = BD 2

[xxo]

440 series steels could be made in China or Japan but it is not. Japanese AUS steels are very different to 440 series. 440C is not a cheap steel, nor is a good HT, you are not going to find any $5 knives made from 440C, though you can find a bunch marked "440" or "440C".

Years ago some good quality Japanese knives where marked 440 or 440C, these were actually AUS6 and AUS8 this was because Japan does not make 440. More recently when some knife manufactures in the US sought to have some knives made in China from 440C they got 8cr13mov again because China does not make 440C.

[QuietBearr]

There is a really good article concerning the AUS-440 line of steels and which is differnet in I think Blade Magazine.

It parallels what most people including myself think, and that is they are mostly the same, although some ingredients are different and in different quantities, like the V and Cr, because AUS has V in it it makes up for the missing carbides that 440 series has. The only major difference is stain resistance, 440 has slightly more than AUS, and AUS has slightly more edge holding than 440, but they are mostly the same in performance.