How to Mirror a blade?

[kurodrago]

Guys how to you put on a polish mirror edge on the knife without using machines?
Any ideas?

Thanks

[Madnumforce]

First, what we use nowadays (at least where I work) to buff blades and other stuff to mirror finish:


http://www.otelo.fr/waroot/images/produits/zoom/54967100_A.gif


Just stacked coton fabric layers, sewn to different radius for rigidity.

Before machines existed, there was still a way to do it. You just have to have muuuuuuch time to spend. Between two long (about forearm+hand lenght), 3 fingers large, tough pieces of wood, they were putting many stacked layers of coton fabric, arranged so that when you pinch the wood bars at both ends, it's trapped in between and form a relatively flat surface to which cotton layers are perpendicular. You see what I mean? Then you just put polishing paste (i guesse you call it "rouge") on this cotton surface and just push back and forth on the blade till it's mirror finish.

I've never tried it myself, I've just seen this ancient tool in a museum, but in fact, it's the exact same principle used for this hand tool and for the machine tool, it just take much more time. And you have to have a well prepared surface. If it's raw from HT, you have to do all the polishing job first. In the old days, that was done on special polishing stones, but relatively early hand powered, and then water powered grinding wheels have been used, before having steam power or electricity.

I have a whole book talking about knifemaking from the stone age to the end of the 19th century, I'll take a look if I can find a picture of this tool.



EDIT: Damn! I did not understand that you wanted to mirror polish only the edge! Cause then a fine grit sharpening stone and much time on the leather strop might do the job.

[kurodrago]

First, what we use nowadays (at least where I work) to buff blades and other stuff to mirror finish:


http://www.otelo.fr/waroot/images/produits/zoom/54967100_A.gif


Just stacked coton fabric layers, sewn to different radius for rigidity.

Before machines existed, there was still a way to do it. You just have to have muuuuuuch time to spend. Between two long (about forearm+hand lenght), 3 fingers large, tough pieces of wood, they were putting many stacked layers of coton fabric, arranged so that when you pinch the wood bars at both ends, it's trapped in between and form a relatively flat surface to which cotton layers are perpendicular. You see what I mean? Then you just put polishing paste (i guesse you call it "rouge") on this cotton surface and just push back and forth on the blade till it's mirror finish.

I've never tried it myself, I've just seen this ancient tool in a museum, but in fact, it's the exact same principle used for this hand tool and for the machine tool, it just take much more time. And you have to have a well prepared surface. If it's raw from HT, you have to do all the polishing job first. In the old days, that was done on special polishing stones, but relatively early hand powered, and then water powered grinding wheels have been used, before having steam power or electricity.

I have a whole book talking about knifemaking from the stone age to the end of the 19th century, I'll take a look if I can find a picture of this tool.



EDIT: Damn! I did not understand that you wanted to mirror polish only the edge! Cause then a fine grit sharpening stone and much time on the leather strop might do the job.

Thanks..! I knew that will take long time but never try before.
I want to blue few knive before that I want to polish mirror them.
In any case I want to Learn how to do it:)

[Madnumforce]

Thanks..! I knew that will take long time but never try before.
I want to blue few knive before that I want to polish mirror them.
In any case I want to Learn how to do it:)

So then, you want to polish and buff the whole blade, not only the bevel edge? Blueing only this part and leaving the old finish on the rest of the blade would look strange.
I should be going to that museum again and take a picture of this tool, it would be more clear. And they're doing a temporary exhibition about traditional knifemaking in Solingen, and I wanted to see it anyway.

[kurodrago]

So then, you want to polish and buff the whole blade, not only the bevel edge? Blueing only this part and leaving the old finish on the rest of the blade would look strange.
I should be going to that museum again and take a picture of this tool, it would be more clear. And they're doing a temporary exhibition about traditional knifemaking in Solingen, and I wanted to see it anyway.

I read somewhere the the ciocolat powder will do the trick or any pawder up 10000 grind will do. I was wondering if Baby powder works?

[Madnumforce]

I read somewhere the the ciocolat powder will do the trick or any pawder up 10000 grind will do. I was wondering if Baby powder works?

Mmmhhh....I'm very sceptical about this. It's a question of hardness ratio. The harder the abrasive, the faster the buffing/polishing. Diamond comes first on hardness scale, then other "stones" like corundum, garnet, things like that. You can use dead donkeys to polish a blade, it will just take many time and many dead donkeys, as even though dead donkey is soft, it still have a certain level of hardness, and for 200 dead donkeys particles "filed" by the steel you have to polish, there will still be one or two or three steel particles removed, thus abrasion. But normally, you can go to your usual cutlery store, and just ask for some razor stropping paste, this is a very fine grit abrasive mixed with some fat agglutinative agent that will undubtfully buff your blade much more faster than baby powder (which is talc, I guess).

The tool I described above was the way used before industrial revolution, but there is another way possible, and it's to use jean fabric tensed or glued to some hard surface, and to put polishing/razor paste on it, just like a leather strope. The problem is that this unique thin layer is easily cut by the blade itself, and then need much attention or much fabric replacement.

[kurodrago]

Mmmhhh....I'm very sceptical about this. It's a question of hardness ratio. The harder the abrasive, the faster the buffing/polishing. Diamond comes first on hardness scale, then other "stones" like corundum, garnet, things like that. You can use dead donkeys to polish a blade, it will just take many time and many dead donkeys, as even though dead donkey is soft, it still have a certain level of hardness, and for 200 dead donkeys particles "filed" by the steel you have to polish, there will still be one or two or three steel particles removed, thus abrasion. But normally, you can go to your usual cutlery store, and just ask for some razor stropping paste, this is a very fine grit abrasive mixed with some fat agglutinative agent that will undubtfully buff your blade much more faster than baby powder (which is talc, I guess).

The tool I described above was the way used before industrial revolution, but there is another way possible, and it's to use jean fabric tensed or glued to some hard surface, and to put polishing/razor paste on it, just like a leather strope. The problem is that this unique thin layer is easily cut by the blade itself, and then need much attention or much fabric replacement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLVrjra0QqI
Nice input thanks:thumb:
Anyway this guy on youtube he use not abrasive metal polish.

[Madnumforce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLVrjra0QqI
Nice input thanks:thumb:
Anyway this guy on youtube he use not abrasive metal polish.

His technique is interesting. I never thought about using car polishing liquid to do the job. But this liquid contains abrasive grits, that's why it's making the metal shine. Except finding the fine grit (6000 if I remember well) stone he's using in the beginning of the video, his method might be the most simple.

[kurodrago]

His technique is interesting. I never thought about using car polishing liquid to do the job. But this liquid contains abrasive grits, that's why it's making the metal shine. Except finding the fine grit (6000 if I remember well) stone he's using in the beginning of the video, his method might be the most simple.

Yes he uses 6000 grint Japanese water stone, I have the same water stone..I don't know maybe some advantage:D:D
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_1700-1.jpg

Madnumforce thanks for the good advice:thumb:

[Madnumforce]

I have found in one of my books the piece I was looking for. Translated directly from french with old "royal" system mesurements (which are certainly not exactly the same than you actual imperial ones, but are certainly very close), here is what is written:



http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/336/polissage1.th.jpg (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/polissage1.jpg/)

"We used to polish by manually also. For this, we had two pieces of wood, 1" large, 4/12" or 5/12" thick, and 8 to 9" long. The blade tang was hold in a vise, emery mixed with oil was spread on the blade to be polished and onto the wood, and we were rubbing length-wise."




On the picture, we clearly see that the blade is pinched between the pieces of wood, which is not clearly mentionned in the text. Though emery powder can't be found very easily nowadays, I guess the principle is still interesting to make the polishing proces a bit faster and more secure. You can glue soft cloth or leather on the wood to use the car polish or razor stropping paste. If you can't hold the knife handle in the vise, you can still roll a kind of towel or wide leather strap around it, and pinch it in the vise while pulling it:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/69/knifehold1.th.gif (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/knifehold1.gif/)

[jankerson]

You can go up to or above 10,000 grit waterstones and that would take a few of those steps out.

[Madnumforce]

Waterstones are expensive, hard to get, heavy and not convenient to use. Simplier and cheaper solutions really worth a try before spending 70+ $$$ in a stone you'll use thrice a year.

[jankerson]

If I can ever find mine I will do a blade, they are in the attic I think, I have up to 15,000 grit.

[kurodrago]

Thanks jankerson, truly infomative!
I have the 1,000 6,000 10,000 grit waterstones which give me a superb sharpening...especially 10,000 grit is mirror like sharp edge:D
To mirror all the blade is more elaborate job becouse the variation of the angles:o
full complexity comes with hand task, it will be a joke by machine to grit:D

[jankerson]

Thanks jankerson, truly infomative!
I have the 1,000 6,000 10,000 grit waterstones which give me a superb sharpening...especially 10,000 grit is mirror like sharp edge:D
To mirror all the blade is more elaborate job becouse the variation of the angles:o
full complexity comes with hand task, it will be a joke by machine to grit:D

Remember that's how they polish Katanas by hand doing it the old way.

[Madnumforce]

Remember that's how they polish Katanas by hand doing it the old way.

Yes, katanas. Personnaly, I never though I needed NASA-enginered spacecraft materials in my toothbrush, nor to polish or sharpen any camp knife like the japanese the katanas. The katana is the best that ever been done on edged weapons matter, as 14-15th century gothic architecture is the most technical ever achieved, but I don't thnik there is any sense in wanting your country house to be built in 14-15th century gothic style, or in wanting your heavy duty or hunting or EDC blade done and polished like one of a katana. This may be a subject of pride, but it's not practically consistent in my opinion (though, of course, there is no comparison between building a house and polishing a blade, whatever method you might use and result you might want).

[jankerson]

But just think once one is finished that way, it really will be a Mirror if you take it up to 15,000 grit. :)

[Madnumforce]

But just think once one is finished that way, it really will be a Mirror if you take it up to 15,000 grit. :)

That sure will be more shiny than any buffing machine could ever bring it to.

[jankerson]

That sure will be more shiny than any buffing machine could ever bring it to.

It would be a lot of work to get it up that high though, but the finished product would be incredible. :thumb:

[Madnumforce]

I guess that's what their using to polish some of the samples used for metallographic methods that need a perfectly flat surface.

[jankerson]

I guess that's what their using to polish some of the samples used for metallographic methods that need a perfectly flat surface.

I don't know. :D

I have seen some Japanese made Katanas that would blow your mind of you ever saw them. :thumb:

I know my Katana has a Mirror finish on it, but it's not as high as those.

[kurodrago]

I went to a master katana Maker home to see how He do make katana!

And yes is a bit of lunatic talk too.

I talk to young practitioners who want to learn how to make katana's in the

old Fashion!

I will not go into details becouse the cultural difference is astronomical.

The first step...
Only to cut coal in the right form it takes 5 years to learn...and yes boys that is first step.:D:D

[Madnumforce]

I went to a master katana Maker home to see how He do make katana!

And yes is a bit of lunatic talk too.

I talk to young practitioners who want to learn how to make katana's in the

old Fashion!

I will not go into details becouse the cultural difference is astronomical.

The first step...
Only to cut coal in the right form it takes 5 years to learn...and yes boys that is first step.:D:D

But finally, we, with our simple steel, wheel grinded stone swords, invented the 4-stroke engine, the blast furnace producing hundreds of tons of cast iron per day, the suspension bridge, and went to the moon. Don't spend two times more effort to make something 10% better: look for another technology.

[jankerson]

Yeah but it's just not the same. :D

There is nothing like a real hand polished Katana. :thumb:

Mine is polished by hand (I can shave in it), but it's nowhere near what the priceless Japanese ones are like.

I could get it done, but it costs like $2000 or more.

[trib trekker]

When I convexed my FFBM, Ash-1 and Fuhrman Last chance, I simply used progressively finer sand paper and finished with a leather strop treated with diamond (blue) compound. Wasn't even looking for a mirror, but I got it! You can't get any shinier than mine on the bevel. The Fuhrman took a long time, but the Busse's only took about an hour each, start to finish. No machines or fancy tools. Just steady patience. Sorry, no pics. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Shaving sharp, even after chopping.

[kurodrago]

But finally, we, with our simple steel, wheel grinded stone swords, invented the 4-stroke engine, the blast furnace producing hundreds of tons of cast iron per day, the suspension bridge, and went to the moon. Don't spend two times more effort to make something 10% better: look for another technology.

And then the Japanese came and copied everything:rockon:


When I convexed my FFBM, Ash-1 and Fuhrman Last chance, I simply used progressively finer sand paper and finished with a leather strop treated with diamond (blue) compound. Wasn't even looking for a mirror, but I got it! You can't get any shinier than mine on the bevel. The Fuhrman took a long time, but the Busse's only took about an hour each, start to finish. No machines or fancy tools. Just steady patience. Sorry, no pics. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Shaving sharp, even after chopping.

Nice staff! How do manage the handle?

[trib trekker]

I hate it when I read all the posts to the end of the thread, (at least I think I did) then post a response, then suddenly see my post after a whole line of discussion that has completely changed from the subject that I didn't see before. Obviously my input is obsolete from the thread. Makes me look like a moron. Cat's out of the bag now I guess.

[kurodrago]

I hate it when I read all the posts to the end of the thread, (at least I think I did) then post a response, then suddenly see my post after a whole line of discussion that has completely changed from the subject that I didn't see before. Obviously my input is obsolete from the thread. Makes me look like a moron. Cat's out of the bag now I guess.

You think too much...Relax and Have Fun:thumb:
It''s all good my friend;)

[winbag338]

When I convexed my FFBM, Ash-1 and Fuhrman Last chance, I simply used progressively finer sand paper and finished with a leather strop treated with diamond (blue) compound. Wasn't even looking for a mirror, but I got it! You can't get any shinier than mine on the bevel. The Fuhrman took a long time, but the Busse's only took about an hour each, start to finish. No machines or fancy tools. Just steady patience. Sorry, no pics. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Shaving sharp, even after chopping.
Thats how i do it.

[kurodrago]

It' very hard and long process, so I decided to speed up a bit... but still in progression:)

So far....false edge on the back is no more false, the back edge now is really sharp and semi mirrow too:) very hard job by hands:o
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3195.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3197.jpg

So I decided to buy this for 25$:D will help me on Mod'ing any edge any knife any time:rockon:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3186.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3187.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3188.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_3190.jpg