Broken knife pics [Archive] - Knife Tests.com Forum

slipfirep40

06-23-2008, 12:19 AM

Here ya go emf. Eat your heart out.

The ka-bar heavy bowie is one hell of a tough knife. I destroyed one of these not to long ago and did things ten times as abusive as chopping wood with it. I chopped hard, rock filled concrete for at least a half hour. the blade was a recurve when
I was done, but still together. I put both sides of the knife on chunks of concrete and jumped on it repeatedly without blade failure. I then cut off the handle and repeated the test. No blade failure. I then tried the same thing with a five pound barbell weight dropped from 6 feet. The weight bounced up about 4 feet up and almost smashed my foot. I repeated this four times. Then I tried the same test with a 15 lbs weight. the damn thing finally broke.

I did a hell of a lot more things to it than that, But I don't feel like typing it all right now.

Here is a pic of the poor thing:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/slipfirep40/003.jpg

slipfirep40

06-23-2008, 12:21 AM

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/slipfirep40/srtrider001.jpg

Noss

06-23-2008, 05:36 PM

xxo: I finally get to see K-dogs Bushman that he broke. I didn't know he posted a photo of it. Thanks.

slipfirep40: You need to sell that KA-Bar as a Jigsaw puzzle :D Is that Strider Buck the replacement after you blew the edge out chopping ?:p:D

xxo

06-23-2008, 07:12 PM

Hi Noss, wish cold steel still made the bushaman as good as they used to when they were makin 'em in Tiawan.

Slipfire looks like you got your money's worth with that one :eek:

Heres another pic for the collection:

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2756910920101908233sZLEvB?vhost=good-times

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562694

eatingmuchface

06-23-2008, 08:31 PM

lol
slipfire does the Rd9 passaround count?
that sucked that everyone freaked out and thought you did it on purpose or somerthing (i did too for a little while) but honestly...
yeah nvm I'm actually not going to say it.

I've never broken a knife yet... (during normal use)
:D

Noss

06-24-2008, 08:54 PM

What happened with the RD9 pass around ?

xxo

09-07-2008, 05:35 PM

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/sicily02/100_0069.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581630

Noss

09-07-2008, 10:14 PM

Thats not two surprising with the Rat 7. Ontario seems to have a hit or miss heat treat. I have seen quite a few people state they have broke RTAK's as well.

Sharp

09-08-2008, 12:43 AM

Does my grip count? :D

Still Usable.

Noss

09-09-2008, 12:59 AM

You lost your didn't you ? :p:D

kurodrago

09-09-2008, 08:18 PM

What this thread teaches us!? That any knife can fall, break etc..
Do your on test (in your knife) in order to see if is good, suitable and strong enough.
Before bettin your life on it.
Not in all cases, but big money does not mean quality and vice+versa.
Noss videos are pure demonstrations of it.

Nice thread xxo Thanks:thumb:

Sharp

09-10-2008, 09:41 PM

You lost your didn't you ? :p:D

Nope!! I still have my Grip. :D ... and it can still cut. :eek:

xxo

09-28-2008, 12:57 AM

http://coloradok5.com/photos/data/500/P1010270.JPG

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586321

G. Scott H.

09-28-2008, 01:17 AM

Holy shit! Is that the end of the tang sticking out on that Gerber (just behind the rearmost nut)? Most of the handle is just solid plastic? :eek::headbang:

xxo

09-28-2008, 05:27 PM

Don't know what gerber was thinking with that, they shoulda molded the handles over a full tang, or at least used better plastic (real deal zytel/frn maybe?) and changed the design so that handle is not so weak around the tang.

Macgregor

09-30-2008, 08:06 PM

Last time I recomend the gerber, not carrying mine anymore.
Back to the tram and the ontario.

xxo

10-10-2008, 08:42 PM

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j208/Wombatulus/Knives/TravKnives087.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477372

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586799

xxo

10-10-2008, 09:25 PM

its kind of interesting to see how these knives died.

Bushman - blade broke chopping 3" wild cherry using a stick in the handle.

Recon Scout - blade broke splitting using baton.

KaBar Heavy Bowie - blade broke splitting using baton.

Benchmade CSK - BILT tang broke - cause unknown.

Mora - blade broke batoning.

Slipfirep40's heavy bowie - beaten to death!

Dog Father - blade chipped out chopping (bad batch of blade steel).

Ontario D2 RAT7 - giant chip broke from blade while splitting using baton.

Gerber Gator machete - handle broke chopping 2x4.

Manix - tip broke battoning through a 2" branch.

Kephart - handle cracked, tang seperated chopping.

Nutnfancy's CSKII - blade chipped out chopping branches.

HI Chiruwa AK - blade broke splitting w/baton.

Lafayette's CSKII - tip broke digging in rotten birch wood.

Fiskar hatchet - edge chipped/handle broke splitting wood.

next gen. kabar - tang broke hammering wood with pommel.

Nutnfancy's cs pocket bushman - lock spring bent by pulling out too far. *Replacement broke same way.*

Cutlerylovers pocket bushman - lock spring broke batoning.

ChanceToFade's cheap Chinese hollow handle survival knife - handle broke off chopping.

338 Stalker's Dog father - edge bent/rippled chopping.

338 Stalker's Chopwieler - tip broke

DocGP's CS longhunter chipped out

Shuya's RC3 - tip broke chopping/prying fatwood stump.

dcgisme's kabar BK9 - blade shattered splitting oak log using a baton.

Ranger

10-25-2008, 09:25 AM

Thx a lot!! I was gonna get me a CS Recon Scout and a OKC RAT 7 D2, rethinkin' my decision now [;-).
Guess I stick to the Fallknivenzzzzz [:-0.

I'm a bit surprised about Ontario though, they should know better.

xxo

10-25-2008, 01:28 PM

I would stay away from D2 in a large chopping knife, but I wouldn't mind in 1095. There have been alot of complaints about spotty QC from Ontario but I have never had a problem with Ontario's 1095 myself. Cold Steel's carbonV generaly has a good rep. but there have been a few that have broke when they shouldn't have. Nobody's QC is perfect.

Ranger

10-25-2008, 06:13 PM

XXO, thanx for the reply. That's exactly what I need: user input! Bit difficult for us in Yurp though to get our hands on an CS Carbon V knife; not so many of them around and the people that have them keep them tightly to themselves, I'm afraid. I know that's what I would do!!

But again: good advice, also moneywise, haha.

xxo

10-25-2008, 06:45 PM

Ranger

10-25-2008, 07:50 PM

i think carbon V was the same stuff as Camillas was using on the Beckers. since camillas went under, CS is having their carbon knives made in China from SK5. SK5 is very similar to 1085, which is what the Kabar heavy Bowie is made of, with a good heat tratment, should be harder to break than CarbonV or 1095 but won't hold and edge quite as well. Not a huge dif. if the heat treat is right CarbonV is similar to 1095 and 1085/SK5 is not far from these either.

Ok, then perhaps it was tang/blade design in combination with the particular task that the knife was asked to perform that made that (your?) Recon Scout crack. I was wondering why just the tang was sheered right off; otherwise the blade looks OK to me. And I have been reading good things about SK5, just not about Cold Steel ;) so seeing it destroyed didn't come as such a shock to me as did the RAT 7 D2-breakdown. I would love to read your, and everybody elses for that matter, take on this because it is not like the RS has a flimsy tang/blade-contruction. Again, just from the looks of things ;)

xxo

10-25-2008, 08:22 PM

None of the knives were mine (you can see whose they were along with the details of how they broke in the links posted with each pic).

Any knife can break if it is beat on hard enough or it has some sort of manufacturing defect. I would guess that broken RS had some sort of defect in the steel. Rounded shoulders would have been better than square (less of a stress riser) but I still would guess that the was a problem with the steel or heat treat on thart particular knife.

xxo

11-03-2008, 07:52 PM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/3001247530_d3265179b0.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594676

shmoopiebear

11-03-2008, 08:43 PM

I am surprised about the Cold Steel Bushman and Recon Scout as well as the ScrapYard Knives Dogfather. All have good warranties so it should be no problem getting a replacement from the factory. The Recon Scout might be a QC tempering problem for the later ones though in that they do not use Carbon V anymore. The Dogfather is SR77 so it is guaranteed for the life of the knife. If you can break it they replace it. Simple.

xxo

12-18-2008, 08:34 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDYz4RZwWcM

xxo

01-03-2009, 11:51 PM

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609283

lafayette

01-04-2009, 05:29 AM

About the benchmade CSKII, I confirm : it is a piece of s...t. It does stand any stress, I would not even use it in my kitchen. Gives the feeling that Benchmade made its own counterfeits....I made some picts in the former forum about this knife. Moreover, it is not a cheap knife...

xxo

01-04-2009, 09:58 AM

It was surprising how easy Nutnfancy's broke in his vid, didn't expect that from a 1095 Benchmade blade.

lafayette

01-04-2009, 10:23 AM

Almost the same happened to me with this knife about one year ago : the tip just broke, like that.
http://hgyu456jucl.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=272&whichpage=2
Hre is the thread which deals with Benchmade in the former forum. The photos are at the end of the thread

lafayette

01-04-2009, 10:25 AM

And the most amazing part of it, it is that you still see people who don't believe you about this knife because it is a Benchmade....A bit like CR knives....

xxo

01-04-2009, 11:46 AM

I remember your pics, but I forgot where you posted the link:

http://www.hiboox.fr/go/albums/miscellaneous/cskii,f9vutfs22xc3vs4gobrv11fvhc2rdp

it sucks that benchmade is putting out such junk, seems like the cskII could be a decent knife with a proper heat treat and a better sheath.

lafayette

01-04-2009, 01:52 PM

yes, you are right XXO; And that's why this website is interesting, because there is no complaisancy. The brand and its fame are not relevant for Noss' testing.

Macgregor

01-04-2009, 09:02 PM

Benchmade does a pretty shoddy HT on their 1095 and d2 IMO.
Their s30v also is pretty soft but damn easy to sharpen.

xxo

01-17-2009, 11:16 PM

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613508

me2

01-17-2009, 11:36 PM

Shoulda used the right tool for the right job. A FBM would still be together.

xxo

03-02-2009, 12:15 PM

http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/zorandjurkic/036.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625936

Noss

03-03-2009, 12:43 AM

The D2 Ka-bar broke at the same location during d-testing.

xxo

03-03-2009, 08:58 PM

looks like a weak link, the tang is nice and wide but they stepped it down where it goes into the but cap. Seems to me that they should have left the tang full width and cut a wider slot in the buttcap.

Noss

03-06-2009, 01:36 AM

Yeah it's a weak design.The but cap also has a lot of surface area and the connection point is very narrow and small. Like a plate on top of a pencil. So if it's not hit square over the connection point or off center there is going to be a very good chance it will fail.The D2 was not ductile like the Ontario pilot 1095 survival knife so it just broke clean off instead of bending.

chuckmanley83

03-06-2009, 09:34 AM

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613508

This picture alone over on BladeForums talked me out of buying a Fiskars hatchet

xxo

03-28-2009, 12:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHvzmUcIKc

xxo

03-28-2009, 02:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9an36WvNT4U

Madnumforce

03-28-2009, 03:50 PM

Aha! I had no trust in the Pocket Bushman. Well... mainly cause it's just a stolen design, from the giant Douk (you know, with Opinel that's the only french brands you americans know, so i defend them), and then cause we have to use the lanyard to open, and this, in my opinion, is a bad idea (what if it breaks? it seems the spring is pretty strong). If you have to baton, use a FBM or a decent fixed blade, if you need a pocket knife, buy a Douk or any other decent folder. Due to the size, conception, etc... a folding knife just can't be intended to do the job of a fixed one, at least in normal use. There is no wrong or shame in having a big knife in the backpack, and a folding one in the pocket. Personnally, i even prefer carrying three blades: a big fixed (FBM), a small fixed (Roselli Grand Father) and a folder i keep the blade clean to eat with. You just can't to all the tasks with one knife, so better chose one excellent knife of each kind.

Noss

03-29-2009, 01:42 AM

Damn that sucks. It looks like Cold steel needs to fix that design. I'll just stick with my Douk- Douk.

xxo

03-29-2009, 09:45 AM

looks like something they could fix with a different spring/cutout, but i would rather have a different lock or no lock at all than a lock that takes 2 hands and a lanyard to close.

I always wanted a Douk douk - wish they made one a with a 4-5" blade in stainless.

EDIT: looks like they have already found a fix for the pocket bushman spring slot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgH-L-00dRQ

Madnumforce

03-29-2009, 03:57 PM

They fixed the spring breakage, but it seems it still can jump out. It was easy to fix what they fixed, but they'll need to change relatively deeply the design if they want the ram to always stay in place.

About the Douk, they do a giant one (10.3" open, 5.6" closed), but carbon blade, and quite more expensive (about 100$)... But you know, carbon is not such a big deal about corrosion. I had a Baraka in my pocket for about 4 months, and i was sure it was stainless. It just didn't take the smallest bit of rust, not even because of my sweet (that is usually relatively accid). Well i tried an experience to parkerize or phosphatize it, don't know how you say, to prevent from rust precisely, and now it's rusting under the layer... got owned...

Spanish-knifeman

04-15-2009, 08:18 AM

I think any Douk-douk have a locking system. The CS can be closed without using the lanyard, for this reason the end of the "locking bar" has some grooves for the thumb not to slip. I think CS Pocket Bushman could be seen as a good improvement of a Douk-douks design and for less money. Douk douk is a very good knife for the money, but CS haven't made only a copy. Another french folding knives that are awesome are Opinel. This is a very good knife maker and its folders have locking system.

kurodrago

04-17-2009, 08:37 AM

xxo.... Nice video, although I believe this is cold steel direct response to exposed fact from nutnfancy.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_2895.jpg
I have the old one I’m　happy with.
I don't think that cold steel fix the issue, actually from my point of view is more weak than the first version!
Especially if you can open with one hand.

To go where nutnfancy was on is video it takes real extremes, unlikely to happen.

Me
Unlikely that i will carry folding knife in the woods.....
But
if is the only knife I carry with me , it will be always open for real.

xxo

05-05-2009, 09:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXaqrvuqtjk

kiah

05-05-2009, 10:16 PM

That's funny. I gotta freebie "survival knife" with an order on Ebay. It snapped cutting nylon webbing.

One note on the vid. I can't think of a production company that makes hollow handled knives in the US. I believe the CRK one-piece line is made in South Africa. Could be wrong though. Anybody else that does them?

kurodrago

05-05-2009, 10:39 PM

I was 14 years old when the same thing happened to me.
I don't think that the problem is product from china, the real problem and what you know about that knife/s and what we buy:) good one

Noss

05-06-2009, 01:20 AM

LOL that knife would get a ZERO rating here. That knife would break on the apple for real.:eek::D

Noss

05-06-2009, 01:44 AM

One note on the vid. I can't think of a production company that makes hollow handled knives in the US. I believe the CRK one-piece line is made in South Africa. Could be wrong though. Anybody else that does them?

Not sure what hollow handles knives are fully made here anymore. The only USA hollow handle knife I own is the Buck Master. What about Farid knives are they USA made ? anyone know ? It doesn't say on their website.

Yes some of the machining is done in South Africa on the CRK projects.

xxo

05-06-2009, 07:50 AM

for about the same $20 he could have got a bushman.

way back in the day, cold steel had an ad showing a busked up buckmaster. the blade had snapped in several places but the hollow handle did not break off. hollow handles can be made reasonably strong, but I don't think they are worth the effort on most knives, alot of people want a hollow handle and a cool looking sawback on their "survival" knife though.

Carney

05-06-2009, 10:42 AM

Think Martin makes one based on a Jimmy Lile, check tere site martin knives

Noss

05-07-2009, 05:04 AM

Yeah they do. I wounder what they cost ? I always loved the first blood knife.

Carney

05-07-2009, 01:10 PM

$525! lot of money for a hollow handle.They do have some awesome looking knives though. Do you know much about them?

Carney

05-07-2009, 01:15 PM

I thank your Buckmaster is the toughest hollow handle ever made. My cousin got one when they came out in the early 80's ,put it through the ringer, and it is still going strong. I could'nt afford one so I got a larger Parker copy, that lasted about 15 years till I hit the blade right, and snap, right at the handle. Martins do look a lot like the lile, and that is cool.

dingyu1980

05-07-2009, 09:54 PM

buck master, i like this , man,:D
but the blade is too heavy for the size , about .7kg, right?with the same weight , if i have a choice ,i will chose the coldsteel Gurkha Kukri in sk5 version.
while, as what you have said here, bucke master is a good knive, i just think that
it is overpricing and overweight a bit.:D

xxo

05-09-2009, 02:14 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUoeyT5TWck

xxo

05-11-2009, 09:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GN0tMXXGj8

338 Stalker

05-11-2009, 09:52 PM

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/Tez308/CWTipFail-1.jpg
This broken Swamp Rat Chopweiler tip caused some concern :rolleyes:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/Tez308/CWTipFail-5.jpg

Not broken but a little bent, still, I wanted to show some of the men on this forum just how well SR-77 stands up under some heavy duty strikes(hard wood).
I should say I used this knife the way it was intended then some. SR-77 is some great steel for the $$$.
It looks worse than it was in these pic's. The DF was still very usable, just with a slight wave on a small portion of the blade.
I was reluctant to post this at first but decided this was the ONLY forum to do it on. So here you go.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/Tez308/Dogfatherbend-3.jpg
From what I can see, SR101 will snap where SR-77 will take it all then some.
Don't get me wrong I think SR101 is some kicking steel but SR-77 is better if one totally depends on ones knife NOT TO BREAK!
INFI might be king but SR-77 is certainly Queen IMO :rockon:

xxo

05-11-2009, 11:39 PM

Thanks for posting your pics 338.

how did the tip bend and how did you straighten it?

338 Stalker

05-12-2009, 12:21 AM

Thanks for posting your pics 338.

how did the tip bend and how did you straighten it?

No worries bro :thumb:

The TIP broke on the CW but the edge on the Dogfather creased/bent very slightly. I wasn't going to do anything about it, but I did shoot Dan a PM regarding this. He really wanted the knife back for inspection so I posted it to him. I was a sent a NIB DFLE :rockon: . Dan & Scrap Yards service is second to none!

xxo

05-12-2009, 12:30 AM

didn't realize they were different knives at first - glad to hear that Dan took good care of you with the replacement!

xxo

05-15-2009, 07:34 AM

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm269/GP100Doc/DSCN2313.jpg?t=1242355264

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645349

Noss

05-15-2009, 10:50 PM

Damn looks like something took bites out of the edge.

xxo

05-24-2009, 12:26 AM

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8969/88989889.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646159

xxo

05-26-2009, 10:18 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3564846866_6fc21552be.jpg?v=0

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647925

me2

05-27-2009, 07:17 PM

So after all this carnage, where are the pictures of the anvils you people have broken with glass and plastic hammers?

Noss

05-27-2009, 08:04 PM

Noss

05-27-2009, 08:05 PM

So after all this carnage, where are the pictures of the anvils you people have broken with glass and plastic hammers?

I had a few photos but I lost them. :D

xxo

05-27-2009, 08:39 PM

Damn that Becker broke like it was glass. I have seen several breaks like this now in Ka-bars the other ones were on a few heavy bowies were the blades was broke like this. I guess K-bars heat treat is inconsistent. This type of thing is becoming a trend with ka-bar on their big knives. A heavy work knife should never break like this batoning wood. If this guy had an emergency his knife would have failed him. No warranty in the world makes any difference in this type of situation. Ka-bars aren't looking good to me at this point.

looks alot like D2 RAT7 (orignally posted on pg2);

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/sicily02/100_0069.jpg

Kind of strange that a 1095 blade shattered like that, would think that Kabar has the heat treat dialed in for these by now, guess it could have been a bad batch of steel too.

at the end of the linked bladeforums thread, Ethan Becker mentioned that they had a similar problem with the old camillus patrol machetes (I remeber this coming up but I don't have the pics) due to a problem with the HT.

Noss

05-27-2009, 11:11 PM

Those are just horrific failures. I've never had a knife fail like these but if I did I wouldn't want another one. Looking at how both of those broke they didn't break clean through to the spin. Looks like they broke as the blade was side loaded or twisted some during batoning. This type of stress is going to happen during batoning no matter how careful you are since it's all done by hand. This is why during D-testing it's important to stress the blade beyond normal use to understand the limits. I suspect during the concrete test
both of those blade would have broke easy.

When batoning wood with a knife it may not be enough to break it but the knife can also be dangerously close to failure from the stress. So the question is how much headroom does the knife posses before failure. This is what we find out in D-testing. People love to argue D-testing and say it's crap but when failures like this happen on knives it helps put D-testing into perspective.

xxo

05-28-2009, 07:55 AM

using a knife with a baton to split knotty hard wood maybe a tougher test than concrete, since you are going to get side loading and twisting on the log. On concrete you get hard impacts on the edge, but the concrete will crumble before you get much of a side load or torque to the main part of the blade.

Looking back at the knives in this thread, a lot of them were done in by batoning wood.

Bushman - blade broke chopping 3" wild cherry using a stick in the handle.

Recon Scout - blade broke splitting using baton.

KaBar Heavy Bowie - blade broke splitting using baton.

Benchmade CSK - BILT tang broke - cause unknown.

Mora - blade broke batoning.

Slipfirep40's heavy bowie - beaten to death!

Dog Father - blade chipped out chopping (bad batch of blade steel).

Ontario D2 RAT7 - giant chip broke from blade while splitting using baton.

Gerber Gator machete - handle broke chopping 2x4.

Manix - tip broke battoning through a 2" branch.

Kephart - handle cracked, tang seperated chopping.

Nutnfancy's CSKII - blade chipped out chopping branches.

HI Chiruwa AK - blade broke splitting w/baton.

Lafayette's CSKII - tip broke digging in rotten birch wood.

Fiskar hatchet - edge chipped/handle broke splitting wood.

next gen. kabar - tang broke hammering wood with pommel.

Nutnfancy's cs pocket bushman - lock spring bent by pulling out too far. *Replacement broke same way.*

Cutlerylovers pocket bushman - lock spring broke batoning.

ChanceToFade's cheap Chinese hollow handle survival knife - handle broke off chopping.

338 Stalker's Dog father - edge bent/rippled chopping.

338 Stalker's Chopwieler - tip broke

DocGP's CS longhunter chipped out

Shuya's RC3 - tip broke chopping/prying fatwood stump.

dcgisme's kabar BK9 - blade shattered splitting oak log using a baton.

Nutnfancy's M21 - liner lock bent out of engagement spitting wood with baton.

Madnumforce

05-28-2009, 02:13 PM

This seems to be a major problem with a kind of trend there is in the knives' world. Hardness is always mentioned, and every brand advertise with "biggest hardness" etc... this makes forget something extremely important for long blades, but also for shorter one: the basic mechanical resistance. When talking about steel, in much disciplines Rm and Re (in Pascal) are mentionned, and nobody cares about hardness (except that the steel have to be annealed for much uses). Resilience is also something very important, but sadly there is no scienitific and standard way to measure and quantify it. Finaly, hardness is only a big deal for blades whose only use is to cut straigth and without lateral stress, much like an EDC of a very sedentary guy. Soon as you hit or twist your blade, especialy for chopping or batonning and mainly for it, hardness is not that important, and even something just about 53-56 HRC could be enough. If i'm not mistaken, most lumber axes aren't even that hard, but much about 48 HRC or so. HT is very important in a blade, and cheating with tempering just to get higher hardness is just stupid, and here's the result. As Noss said, in a survival situation, you're just done with such a shit knife. Better have to straigten your blade with a stone, and to sharpen it often with hard use, than to cry on the absolutely useless broken pieces.

me2

05-30-2009, 11:48 PM

I know I harp on this constantly, but its important to remember that hardness and toughness are not directly related in the hardness ranges to which most knives are tempered. I mentioned in another thread some graphs that show 4340 having a peak in toughness at a tempering temperature of about 400-425 degrees. It does not reach this level of toughness again until the 750-800 degree range. (temps are in Farenheit). For chopping or batoning, I'd agree that hardness is not as important as it is for EDC for someone like a warehouse worker who is breaking down a lot of cardboard and maybe some plastic ties. The cold steel machetes are in the low 50's of hardness HRc and some probably dip into the high 40's and they work fine. I've used mine for chopping wood and lighter vegetation and have had no rolls or dents, and its sharpened at about 15 degrees per side. The effin cameraman's example of someone beating a knife through a pig pelvis with a hammer shows just how tough a piece of steel can be at whatever hardness and still be dependable. I presume this was a fairly soft blade, low to mid 50's HRc. There is an optimal treatment for a given steel which gives a good toughness with edge holding, but there is also an optimum steel that may improve that toughness by as much as an order of magnitude with only slightly decreased edgeholding. I'm basically saying, know the steel and dont temper it in a toughness valley just to say its softer so its "tougher". And as always, the disclaimer that not all steels show this behavior, but, from what I've read, the majority do.

xxo

07-03-2009, 04:06 PM

Nutnfancy's M21 - liner lock bent out of engagement spitting wood with baton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRNwr2ZHS48

Madnumforce

07-03-2009, 06:43 PM

This problem would be fixed with a thinner washer on the opposite side of the liner, maybe with a thin bronze berylium washer or something like that, and changing the axe screw. I had a M16, and it had the same habit to come loose. It's just another proof that nothing can replace a fixed in strenght and toughness, at equal steel, HT, and manufacture quality. It's not a real critical failure, it's easily fixed at home, but it sure is a "nasty surprise" as nutnfancy says if you're in a survival situation.

xxo

07-03-2009, 10:07 PM

I have had CRKT liner locks and frame locks fail too. Probably not a good idea to baton with any folder especially a liner or frame lock.

[RANT ON]I don't see why everyone is doing all this batoning any way - it's completely unnecessary...in fact it is just a waste of more valuable/harder to get large fuel wood to split up into easier to find kindling. The alleged dry wood in on the inside is a crock, wood is generally most dry on the outside if you are burning standing dead wood as you should. I would not risk batoning even a fairly strong fixed blade to split wood in a survival situation...it is just a waste of time and energy and there is a good chance of damaging your knife. [/RANT OFF]

xxo

08-07-2009, 03:58 PM

Looks like this one was built broken (tang too short and not secured to the rubber handle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHhvPJPTEZ4

wildjim

08-08-2009, 04:00 AM

I agree with him "what a stupid stupid stupid designed knife" Black Jack Knives ruined a design over 50 cents worth of steel at the tang, dumb dumb dumb

Consider this for $3.50 ! This is not a sales pitch just an example for thought. AUS8 equivalent steel and full tang for $3.50 at cost !

xxo

08-22-2009, 11:51 PM

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/sodak_photos/inventory/leatherman.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2513/3845986674_4c95046961.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669907

jankerson

08-22-2009, 11:56 PM

Noss

08-23-2009, 03:25 AM

I have a multi tool to add to this. I broke a Gerber almost the same way. I'll post a pic. Multi tools are no were near as tough and strong as a good set of 10 dollar needle nose pliers.

Noss

08-23-2009, 04:42 AM

Addition to xxo's post.

I broke this Gerber bending a piece of light gauge sheet metal. After this the job was finished with a pair of 10 to 15 dollar set of Craftsman needle nose pliers. I never sent it in under the warranty.

http://knifetest.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=518&d=1251016590

xxo

08-23-2009, 12:24 PM

thnx for the pic Noss. :thumb:

seems like a lot of multitools of dffernet brands break like that.

miro44one

08-23-2009, 03:04 PM

Yes it' s weird, I' ve seen alot of breaks like that too. Maybe time for a Multitool test?:D

Anyway, I' ve been using my LM Charge for over a year now without any problems, and I have used the pliers quite hard too:confused:

Noss

08-25-2009, 12:10 AM

No problem.

I have two other leathermans and so far they have held up fine. I bent one of the flat blde screw drives on one of them. It is to soft. This was on one of the first original models. My newer one is much better in this area. (juice cs4)

miro44one

09-06-2009, 10:29 AM

wildjim

09-06-2009, 11:03 AM

I would not use a folding knife in that application but just the same I wouldn't buy a Cold Steel Pocket Bushman since so many defects reported.

I know that kind of wood well and its "hard" but I used my Cold Steel Kukri machete on fallen dried hard wood and it went through it with lots of personal effort but no breakage.

I've also used the Cheaper Than Dirt Rough Use Knife in the same manner for a weekend camping trip chopping fallen dried hard wood for the fire and it did the job with "great" personal effort and no breakage but now I carry an axe ; )

jankerson

09-06-2009, 12:03 PM

That is a very realistic test for that knife or any other knife that is marketed as a hard use blade.

wildjim

09-06-2009, 12:43 PM

That is a very realistic test for that knife or any other knife that is marketed as a hard use blade.

I personally view folding knives as weak but that doesn't excuse the blade steel failure and it is realistic for a knife marketed as tough or not to be used to cut wood.

As I see it now batoning a knife blade with wood through wood should not break the knife blade but many knife blades do break in this application. I would like to know the fact of why it broke.

jankerson

09-06-2009, 12:49 PM

I personally view folding knives as weak but that doesn't excuse the blade steel failure and it is realistic for a knife marketed as tough or not to be used to cut wood.

As I see it now batoning a knife blade with wood through wood should not break the knife blade but many knife blades do break in this application. I would like to know the fact of why it broke.

It's the steel used I believe, remember the cost of that knife, it's very cheap and the steel used 4116 isn't that tough.

Personally I think they should have used a Carbon steel for the blade in that knife for it's intended use and market.

Noss

09-06-2009, 12:57 PM

I would have used a fixed blade for that but if that's all you have on you in a survival situation you may be in trouble or at least use another method for chopping or breaking wood.

Noss

09-06-2009, 06:00 PM

I'm not sure any folder I own could do that task successfully other than my RAO.

jankerson

09-06-2009, 06:47 PM

I would have used a fixed blade for that but if that's all you have on you in a survival situation you may be in trouble or at least use another method for chopping or breaking wood.

Yeah same here, but I do think my ZT could handle it if it had to.

Noss

09-06-2009, 07:01 PM

yeah the ZT's look like they could handle it. I only own one over built heavy duty folder. I may have to try this with my Douk Douk and see if it can handle this. I've never beat on it before it doesn't have much of a pivot pin.

jankerson

09-06-2009, 07:05 PM

Noss

09-06-2009, 07:11 PM

The Douk Douk is cheap so If it breaks no big deal. :D I can always order another one.

jankerson

09-06-2009, 07:14 PM

The Douk Douk is cheap so If it breaks no big deal. :D I can always order another one.

Well if it's cheap, why not. :D :thumb:

Noss

09-06-2009, 07:18 PM

Exactly !!:D :thumb:

jankerson

09-06-2009, 07:24 PM

Exactly !!:D :thumb:

Remember now if it ain't on video it didn't happen. :D :thumb:

Noss

09-06-2009, 07:28 PM

LOL ! :D It will be on video.

jankerson

09-06-2009, 07:37 PM

LOL ! :D It will be on video.

I was just messing with you. :D

I would be interesting though. :thumb:

Noss

09-06-2009, 08:13 PM

Yeah I'm just curious if it would hold up or not. I would video tape it though. I would be interesting to see where if fails first if it does fail. I would never expect it to perform like a fixed blade but if this is a knife I may get lost with and had to use it hard I would want to know how far I could push it.

xxo

09-06-2009, 09:28 PM

I could be wrong, but I would expect most liner and frame locks to let go with that kind of batoning as well as all but the strongest lock backs. The new lock does seem to be good....maybe changing the blade shape from hollow to flat grind would help, but I am think that a tougher blade steel and posssibly a thicker blade would help make the PB able to survive heavy batoning.

G. Scott H.

09-07-2009, 12:59 AM

kurodrago

09-07-2009, 05:23 AM

CS Pocket Bushman!!?
And you go again:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_df90ckMk&feature=sub

wildjim

09-07-2009, 03:18 PM

I reiterate my comments from the CS Forum. I think a simple change to a saber grind on the blade would make it a lot tougher. As my last post over there indicates, my old style PB is flat ground, NOT hollow ground as CS's advertizing states. Not sure if they changed the blade grind on the newer ones or if it's a typo.

I agree I would'nt choose a hollow gound blade for that knife style either.

I also believe since seeing the NutnFancy video (20/20 hindsight) a different choice of blade steel like 1055 or SK-5 would be better for that "survival knife" design.

Anyway as it is it needs fixed. The Cold Steel fanboys have mounted their defense against NutnFancy and ignored the fact that the blade broke.

G. Scott H.

09-07-2009, 06:13 PM

I still think even a saber ground 4116 blade would up the toughness quite a bit, add sk-5 or 1055 into the mix and you have an even tougher blade; however, I figure since they're already using the 4116 it might be an easier sell to CS to just do a new grind, rather than change the steel as well. Idk.

Like I said in the CSF thread, I've had a change of mind about Nutn's test. Yeah, I still think it would have been cool had it held up better, but I do agree with some of the other guy's points about the type of usage it's suited/not suited to. I think the vid linked on CS's site was pretty convincing that the knife will take some hard use, with the monster spine whacks and the batonning (of smaller diameter limbs) shown there.

I still want to see Noss test one, just for kicks. Let's continue. :D

jankerson

09-07-2009, 06:23 PM

I dunno, I will say what I said over on the CSF. :)

It's a cheap $25 knife, it broke, no suprise really.

Now if it was an expensive knife like a ZT 300 series, Strider SMF, or CS Espada then hey I would be calling customer service 5 mins after it broke.

xxo

09-07-2009, 06:53 PM

The test was extreme, but so are some of the claims. In a real survival situation no one with any sense is going to try to baton through a log like that...but I still think it should not have failed the way it did. The problem was not that blade eventually broke/shattered but that it bent out of shape which set it up to break. The lock held up, but the blade did not. If it was fixed blade the same thing would have happened. I think that there is something with the blade steel, HT or geometry that could be improved.

xxo

09-07-2009, 07:17 PM

Here's another pic of DocGP's Long Hunter which chipped out batoning through the rib cage of a bull:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm269/GP100Doc/DSCN2315.jpg?t=1242355210

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645349

Would be kind of interesting to see a D test on a Long Hunter to see how 4116 Krupp steel holds up.

Madnumforce

09-07-2009, 08:15 PM

From my part, i think the HT of the CS Pocket Bushman was ok, the proof is that the steel bend before breaking. But it seems to have more of a pocket folding knife quench and temper, focused on hardness (and thus edge retention and sharpness) mostly, and somewhat brittle in counterpart, then a survival knife HT, that have to be tough above all. It still not a consequent knife: it's advertised for hard use, and can't take it. On the other hand, it's too large and heavy to be a good EDC. I don't understand why to try to make a "folding fixed-like knife". The damages on this Long Hunter tip are another problem...

wildjim

09-07-2009, 08:40 PM

I noticed in the NutnFancy Cold Steel Pocket Bushman video that he was apply lateral pressure to force the wood to chip out. I also noticed a few other videos of blade breakage with lateral pressure possibly applied.

I wonder if the blade is under lateral tension and the blade batoned if that is what causes a stess failure?

I also noticed that Noss seems careful not to apply lateral pressure while batoning during a KnifeTest.

I am just making observations and trying to understand why a blade fails during batoning.

xxo

09-07-2009, 08:51 PM

I would quess that side ways pressure and/or hitting the blade at an angel playeed a part since the steel basically buckeled. The blade was not strong enough to support the stress; if you change the grind to give you more steel to support the load or you change the HT to better resist bending....I would think that you would have to either increase the hardness, but then you run the risk of it becoming too brittle, or you change to a tougher steel.

I don't know much about the Krupp steel or how the HT is....not sure if they do a cryo quench and what the tempered hardness is.

Karl

09-07-2009, 11:11 PM

Fail......

G. Scott H.

09-08-2009, 09:29 PM

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645349

Damnit! :mad: Phil actually mounts a pretty damn good argument against Bastid in defense of Cold Steel's marketing in that thread. Now I once again feel bad about making fun of him (Phil) here. I'm sure it'll pass (:D), but I've got to give the dude props, at least in this case. When he's right, he's right. :o

Noss

09-08-2009, 09:42 PM

Damnit! :mad: Phil actually mounts a pretty damn good argument against Bastid in defense of Cold Steel's marketing in that thread. Now I once again feel bad about making fun of him (Phil) here. I'm sure it'll pass (:D), but I've got to give the dude props, at least in this case. When he's right, he's right. :o

Well Hell now I know the world will end on 2012 for sure. :D

G. Scott H.

09-08-2009, 09:47 PM

Surprised the hell outta me too. :eek: I'm hoping I'll get over it soon. :D

xxo

09-08-2009, 11:11 PM

Just to a think of Phil as a stopped clock....that's what I do when I find myself starting to agree with him.

gd1944

09-19-2009, 12:27 AM

A lovely benchmade of a friend, who tried to chop with this little guy. :)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/JRLK/DSC01399.jpg

Noss

09-19-2009, 12:48 AM

That is a serious break in that benchmade. :eek: It so clean looking it looks like it was made that way.:D

gd1944

09-19-2009, 01:16 PM

I accidentally found this, the break of an old version Trail Master:

http://www.kvande-pettersen.com/nokpi/forum/20050616trailmaster.jpg

G. Scott H.

09-19-2009, 07:12 PM

That is a serious break in that benchmade. :eek: It so clean looking it looks like it was made that way.:D Just sharpen the broken area up and turn it into a recurve (or think of it as a single giant serration :D). :rockon:

Spanish-knifeman

10-02-2009, 10:00 AM

A lovely benchmade of a friend, who tried to chop with this little guy. :)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/JRLK/DSC01399.jpg

This seems to be an old Rant with drop point blade, this knife is so nice but the blade is too thin for hard work...

xxo

10-02-2009, 12:48 PM

Benchmade seems to be having a lot of problems with their fixed blades.

jankerson

10-08-2009, 07:59 AM

Well not all knives are really ment to be used I guess. :D

xxo

11-17-2009, 10:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfDgJErGyc

xxo

12-06-2009, 06:28 PM

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu268/Linker71/IMG_0727.jpg

http://www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5478

jankerson

12-06-2009, 07:11 PM

That's not really too suprising really.

dingyu1980

12-08-2009, 10:04 PM

That's not really too suprising really.

the retention of buck knives is not bad , as i know .
119, is a popular model , :D

jankerson

12-08-2009, 10:43 PM

the retention of buck knives is not bad , as i know .
119, is a popular model , :D

I never said they were bad, I just said it wasn't suprising to me that one broke. They are not strong enough for battoning or prying.

I saw a bunch of them get snapped back when I was in the USMC, a lot of guys bought them back then, but changed to K-Bars later on.

jackson

12-09-2009, 01:06 PM

Damn that Becker broke like it was glass. I have seen several breaks like this now in Ka-bars the other ones were on a few heavy bowies were the blades was broke like this. I guess K-bars heat treat is inconsistent. This type of thing is becoming a trend with ka-bar on their big knives. A heavy work knife should never break like this batoning wood. If this guy had an emergency his knife would have failed him. No warranty in the world makes any difference in this type of situation. Ka-bars aren't looking good to me at this point.

I think this is true, my first becker has taken hell with just some denting. So I got a second which I accidentally dropped on a concrete floor and the blade chipped!
Personally it's fallkniven and mora's all the way now.

dingyu1980

12-10-2009, 01:21 AM

I never said they were bad, I just said it wasn't suprising to me that one broke. They are not strong enough for battoning or prying.

I saw a bunch of them get snapped back when I was in the USMC, a lot of guys bought them back then, but changed to K-Bars later on.

haha , buck knives , normally not strong enough for hard use , i know that.

i really wanta see d-tests on MAD DOG , FEHRMAN ,ER knives , i do not think those things are strong enough as lots of people think !:headbang:

do you have some experiences on those knives ?
i can not get independant info about those things , ads tests or vids are not my style .
:D

jankerson

12-10-2009, 07:16 AM

haha , buck knives , normally not strong enough for hard use , i know that.

i really wanta see d-tests on MAD DOG , FEHRMAN ,ER knives , i do not think those things are strong enough as lots of people think !:headbang:

do you have some experiences on those knives ?
i can not get independant info about those things , ads tests or vids are not my style .
:D

I have used a Fehrman, didn't like it at all.

xxo

01-09-2010, 04:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NfUiiYGdAQ

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=704805

xxo

01-24-2010, 09:28 PM

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/gps_deseng/RitterGripChip.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710095

xxo

01-26-2010, 06:11 PM

http://www.coldsteelforums.com/thumb.axd/400_1374/23AF50E462EE41BEAB07022DC19CF554.jpg

http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=78537&mpage=1#78630

kurodrago

01-27-2010, 06:33 AM

TOPS FIRE STRIKE , 11" OVERALL " bends":eek:

MEASUREMENTS:
• Overall Length: 11"

• Blade Length: 5 1/2"

• Cutting Edge: 2 7/8"

• Blade Thickness: 3/16"
• Weight: 20 oz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl_UREYzRxQ&feature=PlayList&p=DE8D7CD00C1363E3&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxZ_JjvMbOg&feature=PlayList&p=DE8D7CD00C1363E3&index=0&playnext=1

Madnumforce

01-27-2010, 08:04 AM

That is a SHAME! Looks like not quenched at all! That is a failure as critical as CRK breaks, though the knife is still usable if you straighten it on a big stone as anvil with a smaller on as hammer. But it is just unacceptable when knives 1/4 the price handle it without problem.

Too much "tactical", not enough "practical".

jankerson

01-27-2010, 08:38 AM

That was pretty sad. LOL :D

xxo

01-27-2010, 06:58 PM

seems like it was never hardened at all.

Noss

01-27-2010, 07:00 PM

I think someone forgot to put that one in the oven.

Falcor

01-27-2010, 09:29 PM

The scary part is that the knives are processed in batches of A LOT of knives, therefore it is likely that the whole batch missed the oven. Th next question is how many batches, how many models and most important, who has bought them - I hope nobody who has to depend his or her life on it.

kurodrago

01-27-2010, 10:51 PM

What a shame:o what shit knife:mad:
Even if it was a bit of extreme batoning. I main let's be more realistic, you will chop down 15 inch tree and the batoning trueeee? you're nuts?
My disbelief on baton go for all thickness 3/16 form any steels, no less than 1/4 for me!:D:rockon: I still love 1095:rockon:
Tops Knife perhaps thay in the shadows for to long.

xxo

03-17-2010, 10:13 PM

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/savagesicslayer/P3171255.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724977

Noss

03-18-2010, 12:05 AM

Ouch ! Those holes don't leave much of a tang.It may have been better to leave that hole out at that location since it will be under plenty of stress during batoning.

jankerson

03-18-2010, 12:09 AM

I can do exactly the same thing all day long with my Boss Street or my RatManDu when it gets here without all of that happening. ;)

Noss

03-18-2010, 12:12 AM

I believe it. :thumb::D

jankerson

03-18-2010, 12:18 AM

I believe it. :thumb::D

:rockon:

What good is a Bush craft knife if it can't take a beating.... :confused:

My ZT 0301 took more abuse than that and that's a folder. ;)

Savagesicslayer

03-18-2010, 01:11 AM

Believe me no one was more surprised than I was.I own a pile of bushcraft knives and I batoned them all through a lot.I broke so suddenly I was shocked almost beyond words.

jankerson

03-18-2010, 01:17 AM

Believe me no one was more surprised than I was.I own a pile of bushcraft knives and I batoned them all through a lot.I broke so suddenly I was shocked almost beyond words.

I would have been freaking pissed off and on the phone with Customer Service I can tell you.

kurodrago

03-18-2010, 01:17 AM

The seller should say what type handle is made of!
What a shame:D

mick the welder

03-20-2010, 06:20 PM

Cold steel LTC kukri (NOT THE THE LIGHT WEIGHT MACHETE), broken simply splittiing wood. The edge had been modded by my self.

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/078.jpg

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/080.jpg

jankerson

03-20-2010, 06:27 PM

mick the welder

03-20-2010, 06:37 PM

Yes it was, and the odd thing about it, if you look at the top photo you can see a weld on the tang just about the brake under the coating...quality control??

jankerson

03-20-2010, 06:43 PM

Yes it was, and the odd thing about it, if you look at the top photo you can see a weld on the tang just about the brake under the coating...quality control??

Those are one piece, not welded.

Knives do break, interesting that one broke though as the Carbon V stuff is pretty strong, the tang looks pretty thin to me though.

mick the welder

03-20-2010, 06:44 PM

Hey jankerson, enjoyed your chopper videos mate on busse forum, superb...i had a chop out with a friend this morning NMFBM vs FBMLE. The limited edition used almost twice as many cuts, we did it on arm thick pine.

jankerson

03-20-2010, 06:50 PM

mick the welder

03-20-2010, 06:50 PM

This had definately been welded before coated, i work in aerospace engineering, had it inspected by the NDT dept. They said it had been welded and the brake had reveiled an old crack, this was probably the cause of the brake, there was also porosity present in the weld....

jankerson

03-20-2010, 07:00 PM

mick the welder

03-20-2010, 07:07 PM

Yep. They weren,t going to scrap that one at production....." just weld it up boys they,ll never know LOL.

xxo

03-20-2010, 08:21 PM

Man that sucks! Never heard of them welding blades together before. By any chance do you know a metallurist that could look at the grain stucture? Looks kind of coarse in the pics (the heat from welding could have screwed it up) and the rust (if that's what it is) would indicate it had an old crack before it broke.

kurodrago

03-20-2010, 09:52 PM

Noss

03-21-2010, 01:22 AM

The Glock knife has the guard welded to the tang. This is the only welding I have ever seen on a knife.

I guess Camillus decided to fix it instead of scraping it. :eek:

me2

03-21-2010, 11:24 AM

It looks like the old crack is what did it in, unless you've had the exposed fracture laying out on the porch or something. The grain looks a little coarse, and between that, THE CRACK, and the porosity, it was only a matter of time. Its a shame that the knife companies don't have a good welding procedure for fixing things like that. These things can be welded, but it has to be done right and the same each time. It's actually cheaper to scrap them and make another than to try to properly weld and reheat treat it.

xxo

03-21-2010, 06:39 PM

I would think it would cost more for the factory to weld it than to scrap it.

mick the welder

03-21-2010, 08:41 PM

it had been welded but without any shielding gas by the look of it

Noss

03-23-2010, 01:35 AM

Must have been fun trying to weld it without shielding gas. :eek::D

kurodrago

03-28-2010, 01:21 PM

BK-9:eek:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=103695

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/ajm32386/DSCF1350.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/ajm32386/DSCF1352.jpg

jankerson

03-28-2010, 01:34 PM

This is the 2nd Trail Mater I have broken... :headbang::mad::mad: :jerkit::jerkit:

http://photocamel.com/gallery/data/2527/medium/DSC_4001.JPG (http://photocamel.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=60251)

http://photocamel.com/gallery/data/2527/medium/DSC_4002.JPG (http://photocamel.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=60252)

http://photocamel.com/gallery/data/2527/medium/DSC_4003.JPG (http://photocamel.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=60253)

kurodrago

03-28-2010, 01:40 PM

jankerson

03-28-2010, 01:43 PM

This is why I don't like all the knive with that "pattern" guard!
Soon or later it will happen.

My Old SM III and Carbon V's never had that issue. :headbang:

Must be a real problem with Taiwan QC. :jerkit:

kurodrago

03-28-2010, 01:56 PM

My Old SM III and Carbon V's never had that issue. :headbang:

Must be a real problem with Taiwan QC. :jerkit:

The handle is pressed in...even if the handle was fixed with the screws that type guards have issue:thumbdwn: A bad fall......and:headbang:

jankerson

03-28-2010, 01:59 PM

The handle is pressed in...even if the handle was fixed with the screws that type guards have issue:thumbdwn: A bad fall......and:headbang:

I contacted CS and told them they can have their knife back and I don't want another one. :jerkit:

I will use my SM III from now on.

kurodrago

03-28-2010, 02:03 PM

I contacted CS and told them they can have their knife back and I don't want another one. :jerkit:

I will use my SM III from now on.

Be careful with SM III too:D:D

Madnumforce

03-28-2010, 02:57 PM

That's a shame about that Trailmaster, especially if it's the second you broke. But I don't see clearly where it broke... Or did just the handle rubber slip around the tang? It seems to have a "pommel rivet", so what's the deal, it's not fixed to the tang? That would be a flaw in the design.

xxo

03-28-2010, 06:28 PM

http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q387/Christopher-Cody/axe%20hatchet%20pics%201/IMG_4076.jpg

Cody1's Kabar cutlass machete, posted in another thread about Is1's chipped BK9.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727886

jankerson

03-28-2010, 07:17 PM

Those are huge chips.....

kurodrago

03-29-2010, 03:05 AM

jankerson

03-29-2010, 11:32 AM

Noss

03-29-2010, 06:19 PM

xxo

04-07-2010, 04:27 PM

http://coldsteelforums.com/Busted-Recon-1-m88835.aspx

xxo

04-07-2010, 07:05 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJpkkG5UNYQ

Madnumforce

04-07-2010, 07:28 PM

The Ka-Bar is not a bad knife, but it was designed to be a cheap mass produced issue knife, therefore the choice of the thin stamped guard, which requires squares blade-tang jonction shoulders, making a weak point there. Nowadays, with molded over tang plastic handles, the Ka-Bar design could be improved, and this flaw removed, it would give it a new life while keeping the spirit of this venerable design intact.

xxo

04-07-2010, 08:15 PM

Not a bad knife, but that stick tang is a problem.....leave it hard and it breaks, leave it soft and it bends easy.

Noss

04-08-2010, 12:18 AM

The tang on the kabar D2 is an improvement. It's wider, thicker and resists bending.

jankerson

04-15-2010, 06:09 AM

Madnumforce

04-15-2010, 07:50 AM

You know how it is, the fanboys will always say how great it is etc, but when something goes wrong they blame the user not the knife. LOL

Yes, the cars-are-not-made-to-crash philosophy, that only leads to certain death if you crash, whatever the reason. When you take a car, you have to take two cars: one to drive normally, and one to crash. It's called: getting the right tool for the job. A normal car don't have to be resistant to crash, and a crash car don't have to go well. It's your fault if you can't go from the normal car to the crash car in due time and die. Thinking engineers might do a car that go well and is secure when you crash is total heresy and completely useless. The proof: our favorite brand XXXXX doesn't doo that, they only do normal cars, you have to buy the crash car separately. Peoples who crash normal cars are ignorant morrons wearing hockey mask because they have something to hide. Their test with cars from other brand that go well and crash with maximum safety for the user shows nothing more than he don't know how to use a normal car. A normal car don't have to crash! Anyone crashing normal car, especially if he's wearing a hockey mask, should be shot at once if he's not allready dead! Cause he also infriged hockey-masks-are-made-only-to-play-hockey law, and the we-just-dont-like-your-face-and-hate-you-are-right law. But shot with a rifle and bullet made exclusively to shot people crashing normal cars and wearing hockey masks (if he's wearing hockey mask, otherwise it's another rifle and bullet), or the guy shooting the guy who crashed a normal car should be shot with a rifle and bullet made on purpose to shoot guys who....

xxo

04-30-2010, 01:55 PM

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9901/dsc00039cg.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734615

xxo

04-30-2010, 05:33 PM

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5268/gorsemod010.jpg http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6135/gorsemod008.jpg

www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713911&page=3

G. Scott H.

04-30-2010, 09:44 PM

I can see the Mora snappng from being twisted while stuck in gnarly wood, but the Condor is a shocker. Caused be a glancing blow off a log? Freaky. :eek:

soapboxpreacher

05-01-2010, 05:16 PM

More Becker problems. Seems to be a trend. I personally would never buy one for myself. I love some of the comments in those threads. That it's the users fault that the knife failed. :jerkit: Typical fanboy BS. :thumbdwn: one was chopping wood and the other cutting fatwood big freaking deal. I've cut much harder, tougher materials than that stuff with knives without these type of problems. What a crock of shit !!!!

I guess the moral of the story with Beckers is don't chop concrete but don't chop wood either it's just to much for Becker's to handle. I guess there's not much left you can do with these pieces of junk.:p:D I'm being a little sarcastic of course but giving the position of these whiners when things go bad for their image on the forums I don't think it's out of place.

Couldnt agree more. I dont get the becker or the CS following for that matter. I see and hear so many problems I just dont get the heavy fanboy following. The only Becker that is worth anything is the BK2. But lets be honest...the handle blows...shock city, slick! the rivet in front that fastens the handle to the tang breaks constantly.... it is a huge compliant and you see it posted all over. Yes it is cheap and you can put micarta handles on...if you want a good thick 5" for the money do a RC5...same specs, better heat treating, better handle, and far far better warranty.

Also, while I am on my rant...the BK9...another one that has more problems then toyota right now! Broken handle, chipped blades, broken handle rivet...yes it is cheap but you get what you pay for. I am no pro yet but dig around and read...tons of issues. I see pix of bending and so on...you can have them.

As for CS...I think they have just became so popular that more people own them. But my issue with them is the "What steel will it be this week chuck?" The trail master seems to be loved...but once again finger guard breakage!!! Enough said. More so CS isnt all that cheap anymore either. When they had Carbon V...they were a better company. Not saying they are horrible but a mid-level line...overall decent but not in the high or even elite class. I dont know about you but I want to buy a few knives and be done...never wonder if I should have just went for the right one from the beginning.

xxo

05-01-2010, 06:48 PM

I had a Camillus BK9 and it was a good knife for what it was, though I moved on to the SP5 and an assortment of machetes just because of personal preference. It is easy to see why the Beckers have a following, I wish them well and hope they get the problems sorted out.

Cold steel has some outstanding low cost offerings such as their bushman, machetes and SF shovel. Their old voyager series folders where pretty good, though I much prefer Spyderco's frn folders for around the same price.

xxo

06-05-2010, 11:09 PM

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt28/akaboum/gb002.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732783

Noss

06-06-2010, 01:43 AM

Not sure why chopping some frozen wood would be user error since in that type of climate this is what you would be chopping to being with. So does this mean freeze to death instead. :rolleyes: Funny how everyone always jumps on this type of thing when events like this happen.

There were some chipping problems during the D-test and I've seen other breaks like this in their axes back when I posted the test. My Gerber had some chipping issues as well nothing to serious but enough to screw the sharp edge up in certain areas. I just wonder if it's best to leave axe edges a little softer to avoid or minimize problems like this. You may have to sharpen it more often but this is always easier than repairing large chips/breaks like above.

The Tourist

06-06-2010, 02:02 AM

When working at a local sporting goods store I did a lot of edge repair. I oftened wondered if the owner knew the difference between use and abuse. For example, a co-worker drove a rust-bucket truck and had the transmission explode on a hunting trip. In our discussion he sneered, "Well, finances have me driving that 1998 Chevy. I can't afford a new truck like yours."

Mine was/is a 1997.

Like imbibing tequila, broken knives always have a story. "There I was in the wilderness, batoning through my front fender for scrap metal to build a lean-to, when this POS Chris Reeve Sebenza fell apart after only beating it for twelve hours with this wet rock..."

My advice is that if you're constantly repairing chips, or complaining that your equipment is always "failing," the real problem might be "the nut holding the steering wheel" if you get my drift.

kurodrago

06-06-2010, 02:14 AM

I use ax from 10 years old never ad a problem...weird:p
You're sure this guy did strike a stone:D:D:D:confused:

Noss

06-06-2010, 02:17 AM

Yes but in this case he said he was just chopping frozen wood that's not abuse to me anyways. So either we have to look at the info the messenger is bringing or we have to conclude he is lying. Photos can be very deceiving no doubt about that. A person can show a photo and make up just about any story they want.

This is why I use video over photos during testing so it's all recorded. Video can still have it's kinks but it's a a hell of a lot better than just a photo.

By the way I didn't abuse my Gerber axe causing it to chip unless chopping some wood in my back yard is considered abuse by some. But I don't have it on video so you will have to take my word for it or not. :D

I do abuse knives and axes and machetes in the D-tests but all this is recorded on video. You can't do a D-test without abusing it. Just doesn't work.

Madnumforce

06-06-2010, 06:06 AM

It seems the author of the thread lent the axe to another guy, and he is who broke it, while the owner wasn't there, if I understood well. That other guy might as well have abused the axe and claimed it happened during normal use. This guy may also simply be unexperimented, and for exemple have stuck that corner into the wood, and twisted to get it out. The axe itself might have a defect, it's ok, but these kind of axe are not for unexperimented users. These are not Busse you can abuse like if they were pry bars. These are fine tools, meant to be used by experimented users on precise jobs. I have a Fiskars axe (which is basically the same than the Gerber axe), and this is a tool made for average or even unexperimented users: thick beveled edge, and wedge shaped blade, no chance it can break. Gransförs are quite the opposite: thin blades with convexed edges. That geometry makes better performances, especially with the longer handles, but make these tools much more frail. These are not survival tools by themselves, but they become in the hands of experimented users, cause they exactly know the limit of what can be done and what cannot, so they don't let it fail in their hands. Look at Hobbexp channel on Youtube, he's a swedish guy, user of a GB Scandinavian Forest Axe, who pushes survival to a real level, as he knows how to survive in the woods by lighting fire, building shelter, making various accesories out of natural raw materials, get food, etc... He's using only fine tools (we can't say the Mora is a heavyduty fixed), but know exactly how to use them properly. That's how our ancestors were doing. But give these tools to nowadays city guy and throw him in the woods, he will destroy the tools in half an hour (if he's lucky), and then die of thirst, hunger, or because he would have eat some poisonous berry or plant. Hmm... well, not sure he would do much better with a Busse, except he could not break it.

The Tourist

06-06-2010, 11:00 AM

My Dad owned every tool Sears ever made. And that included wood lathes, table saws, a drill press and virtually every hand tool. He had tools dating back to before WWII.

When my Dad passed away my brother and I had to find local craftsmen who could benefit from this collection. Every one of them commented that these tools "looked like new." And I can assure you he delighted in using every one one of them from repairing a dryer, to building furniture and constructing his own garage.

Abuse is never use. If a tool breaks it is simply because the wrong tool was chosen. I had the opportunity to work in The Master Lock carpenter shop for a few summer seasons. The guys used to joke, "Don't force it, use a bigger hammer." It was a comedic way of telling a kid he had the wrong tool.

As a mechanic there was never a need to break an adjustable crescent wrench. Yikes, walk ten feet and go get a breaker bar! Spend an extra dollar and buy six-point deep well sockets. Purchase a church ket instead of snapping the tip off of a knife opening a can of paint.

Ever see a Buck 110 with the tip missing and perhaps a chip midway down the bevel? You just met a deer hunter who breaks the pelvis. He jams the wrong tool into the bone, pounds the handle, then slips and dings the blade.

There are ways to dress out a deer and never touch the pelvis. But if you just "gotta" break a pelvis, go buy a Sears Craftsman chisel.

xxo

06-06-2010, 12:00 PM

Madnumforce,

I thought that Hobbexp said in one of his vids that he likes his hardware store axe better than his GB because it has a heavier head made from softer steel?

Noss,

I got a few very small chips in my fiskars hatchet when it was new, but these sharpened out and I haven't got any more, except maybe when I hit a rock with it. I have had the same thing happen with knives, I think sometimes the factory may overheat or over work the steel when they sharpen it. But these are not near as big as that chip. Frozen pine is still soft wood and an good axe should be able to handle it.

kurodrago

06-06-2010, 01:58 PM

Like imbibing tequila, broken knives always have a story. "There I was in the wilderness, batoning through my front fender for scrap metal to build a lean-to, when this POS Chris Reeve Sebenza fell apart after only beating it for twelve hours with this wet rock..."

There's always a exception in the rule/s.
Bushforge...? The quality of forging was also determined to be less than believed, and it is now considered unlikely to have been done by a blacksmith maybe?
All the experts, like always will say HT maybe?
To me look like just bullS all together!
I'm the anly one who check out this... out Gransfors Bruks Wildlife AXE
D-test for Noss? That thing was Unbreakable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VonRnO80A&feature=player_!

Madnumforce

06-06-2010, 03:43 PM

It may be bullshit, but it may be true. Lemons happens, that's a truth. And on the D-Test Noss did, there wasn't any side force to the edge as strong as there would if, for exemple, someone was hitting the side of the head with a hammer while the edge is catch in a vise or in a log. Anyway, no one is in the head of the author of the picture, and no one is in the steel, so we only can guess what really happened (and if it ever happened). But give an unexperimented user a fine tool, he'll most probably destroy it, except a Busse. Busses are the only morron-proof tools. Do a search on google, you can't find any relevent result about a broken Busse, except Noss D-tests.

@XXO :
Maybe Hobbexp said it, in fact I haven't seen all of his videos, and most of what I've seen I don't clearly remember. But he seems to still use his Scandinavian Forest Axe, so I guess he still considerate it as a good tool. But I guess swedish hardware stores sell quite better gear at least than most french ones, and maybe than some american ones. Nordic peoples are used to go in the woods and live with nature. It's not just by chance that Fiskars, Husqvarna, Gransförs Bruks, Wetterlings, Mora are nordic brands. They have an important outdoor and nature culture, so I guess that even most of their "cheap" hardware stores products are of correct quality. Here in France, it's hard to find well made axes, most are thick, with very raw bevels, rarely symetrical, and often blue because of excessive heating during grinding. Most have also eye-socket, which make the head much thicker uselessly, they are clearly made for unexperimented users, and they are called "multi-purpose axes". In fact, it's very rare to find canadian or american style "felling" axes with flat but wide head, and there isn't much difference between the average hardware store axe and the splitting maul. I can tell you most of these hardware stores axes are crap because of a edge geometry completly unadapted to chop properly, not even to mention overheating during sharpening, loose fitting, etc... That's why, to me, it's not obvious to imagine that I can go to my local hardware store and find something that could be called a proper axe, to compare with a Gränsfors.

The Tourist

06-06-2010, 04:39 PM

It may be bullshit, but it may be true. Lemons happens, that's a truth.

I think we all know that, and everyone has had a favorite tool snap. You can always find a singular example.

But I take care of my tools, and I always seek the best tool. In fact, in the last forty years, only two tools went back to Sears. One was a 1/2 and 9/16s open end wrench, and the other was the motor on a light duty drill driver. I know idiots that break more than that every weekend.

Noss

06-06-2010, 05:58 PM

What constitutes abuse can vary from person to person. Many feel chopping with a knife any knife is abuse. Batoning with a knife is another hot topic. On the other side many have no problems with it and expect it out of the knife.

Noss

06-06-2010, 06:07 PM

xxo

06-06-2010, 06:32 PM

@XXO :
Maybe Hobbexp said it, in fact I haven't seen all of his videos, and most of what I've seen I don't clearly remember. But he seems to still use his Scandinavian Forest Axe, so I guess he still considerate it as a good tool. But I guess swedish hardware stores sell quite better gear at least than most french ones, and maybe than some american ones. Nordic peoples are used to go in the woods and live with nature. It's not just by chance that Fiskars, Husqvarna, Gransförs Bruks, Wetterlings, Mora are nordic brands. They have an important outdoor and nature culture, so I guess that even most of their "cheap" hardware stores products are of correct quality. Here in France, it's hard to find well made axes, most are thick, with very raw bevels, rarely symetrical, and often blue because of excessive heating during grinding. Most have also eye-socket, which make the head much thicker uselessly, they are clearly made for unexperimented users, and they are called "multi-purpose axes". In fact, it's very rare to find canadian or american style "felling" axes with flat but wide head, and there isn't much difference between the average hardware store axe and the splitting maul. I can tell you most of these hardware stores axes are crap because of a edge geometry completly unadapted to chop properly, not even to mention overheating during sharpening, loose fitting, etc... That's why, to me, it's not obvious to imagine that I can go to my local hardware store and find something that could be called a proper axe, to compare with a Gränsfors.

Hobbexp is an extremely knowledgeable bushcrafter, but he is not afraid to use his equipment and use it hard. He also seems to favor low cost, no nonsense tools like his red plastic handled mora and that old axe with the head pained red.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hobbexp?blend=1&ob=4#p/search/11/536spM-2eCI

I found the clip from the vid.....it's at about the 2:55 min. mark.

He even has a vid where he throws it into a tree.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hobbexp?blend=1&ob=4#p/search/8/Jce-UTQMsuo

Madnumforce

06-06-2010, 07:31 PM

He uses his tools hard, but he knows the limit of their use. I think he'll never break the edge of his axes (and especially not the red painted one, as it's softer steel) like on the picture of the GB.

But it's interesting such a real "survival" guy prefers soft steel. It reminds me of some reports I've read about merovingians tools and weapons. It seems that even their harder edges rarely were over 0.4% carbon, and average was even lower, about 0.2%. And they used to make pseudo-laminated blades, i.e. steel edge included in wrought iron. And merovingians weren't pussies in metalurgy, they almost re-invented what we call damascus steel, the layered construction version (opposite to indian and arab wootz, whose mecanical proprieties and production methods are completly different). For centuries, we have been using "soft" steel for edges while we had the choice to make it much harder. It's just kind of funny similarity that a guy like Hobbexp, when he have the choice, favor the soft steel over the hard one.

The Tourist

06-06-2010, 09:47 PM

But it's interesting such a real "survival" guy prefers soft steel.

BTW, the term 'survivalist' is one label we toss around a lot. Does anyone here know a real-deal, nuts and berries, Kit Carson type guy, dressed in buckskins totin' a squaw and a bag of flour? Like I said, I know a guy with a teepee, and he's good in the field. But other than that I just know guys who are good deer hunters, able campers and knowledgeable about wildlife.

I can't say I ever met a true nutball, manifesto spewing uni-bomber whack-job.

kurodrago

06-07-2010, 12:06 AM

Too much trivia to be taken to seriously..but everyone get the own conclusions...based in a photo or video, which for the larger part is just speculation.

Noss

06-07-2010, 12:06 AM

BTW, the term 'survivalist' is one label we toss around a lot. Does anyone here know a real-deal, nuts and berries, Kit Carson type guy, dressed in buckskins totin' a squaw and a bag of flour? Like I said, I know a guy with a teepee, and he's good in the field. But other than that I just know guys who are good deer hunters, able campers and knowledgeable about wildlife.

I can't say I ever met a true nutball, manifesto spewing uni-bomber whack-job.

I don't know any survivalists. For the most part Bushcraft is a hobby for people who live in developed countries very few of them actually live like this out in the wild totally off the grid. No power,phone or internet.

The Tourist

06-07-2010, 09:59 AM

off the grid. No power,phone or internet.

I did see a cable show on the "former hippie artists" who live in Taos, NM and actually own homes that are off the grid. I really liked their roof-top vaned wind-cylinders that generate electricity but do not have fan blades.

Overall, I get the idea of being independent. I think I reloaded for decades just to have the ego boost of not being tethered to stores and their ideas on bullet performance. I know my prairie dog loads shot tighter groups. And I could shoot more for the same money. Of course the 1,200 pounds of lead and linotype in the garage...

Even sharpening started with that same desire.

In short, I don't think that the desire to manage your life more completely is a bad thing. In fact, it's the real reason I like being retired.

For example, it's gray now, but clearing. I feel like lingering over a second latte' and maybe reading the newspaper again. I'm here. I'll ride this afternoon--at the time of my choosing.

My wife used to pack our vacation itineraries so full that traveling was just another 'job.' One year we took a truck to South Dakota. Not for Sturgis, per se, but as part of a bigger trip--she wanted to see Crazy Horse, The Devil's Tower and stay at a (then) new hotel in Lead. I got her to actually slow down for three days there, but I think it broke her stride.

If the idea of freedom is to maximize the life you lead, I'm all for it. But if "the grid" is just another ego toy, like a new BMW at a trim level better than your neighbor's, I do not see the point. You're just another poser.

xxo

06-26-2010, 12:53 PM

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p162/DavidZ_photos/100_0699.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=604435&page=2

Madnumforce

06-26-2010, 07:39 PM

Interesting. Typical of a too thin edge used for work too hard. That interesting also for my KTK project, cause this one is made of spring steel 5160, which is a relatively soft steel with much lateral toughness, but less hardness. A well tempered D2 blade with exactly the same profile and geometry wouldn't have lost a chunk like that, in my opinion. I'm also using a spring steel on the KTK, and that's a usefull lesson: I'd better let a relatively thick edge from grinding, but convex it to a razor edge.

kurodrago

06-26-2010, 11:35 PM

I don't trust the guy...from the pic the edge "chipping portion" seems a bit bend? lateral force involved? Why is bend?

Madnumforce

06-27-2010, 02:10 AM

That's a normal behaviour for a thin edge with soft steel. As it's just not strong enough (too thin for the task), it bends progressively till it reaches the breaking limit, and then snap suddenly. And the author of the topic & pics tells clearly that the edge "waving" appeared little by little, which is coherent. This is an exemple of bad edge geometry and/or bad steel choice, unadequat for the task.

Noss

06-28-2010, 09:01 PM

That sucks. Looking at those pics the whole situation is sad. Not good.

xxo

06-29-2010, 08:10 PM

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o225/josey_photo/DSC01614.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753066

xxo

07-13-2010, 09:34 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4759153876_fa2a1bd588.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=754104

Madnumforce

07-13-2010, 10:26 PM

Mmmhh.... That's not good for a machete, and it's especially surprising from Condor, but: "lemons happens". Hopefully, it wasn't in real survival use.

xxo

07-13-2010, 11:17 PM

Condor seems to have had problems with some of the newer carbon steel breaking....think this is the first stainless one I have seen pic of broken. Condor makes some excellent machtes, I hope they can solve the problem.

Noss

07-14-2010, 09:51 PM

They may be having some heat treat issues at the moment or this one was just a flaw. I've never broke any machete during use and I'm not selective about what I chop with them size wise. I do have a Condor swamp master but it's the only one I haven't used hard either. Not sure if this is normal regarding them but the chopping area was unfinished at the factory. It had Zero edge on it and I had to work hard to finish it. Every other part of the edge was sharp so I'm not sure what the deal is ?

p moore

07-19-2010, 09:43 AM

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq261/pmooreknife/shop%20pics/IMG_0192.jpg

Same as my avatar. I was trying out a new type of steel, and not having the best of luck with the quench that I normally use. I got a little ticked off and just dunked it in cold water from red hot. Not a good idea, to say the least. It broke once at the riscatto, and then a couple more after I beat it with a BFH.

Paul

Noss

07-19-2010, 10:45 AM

I was curious what the story was on the knife in your avatar.:D Thanks for sharing. :rockon:

Madnumforce

07-19-2010, 12:12 PM

Interesting.

What steel is that?
What was the quenching temperature?
Is there any grain size issue?

p moore

07-19-2010, 01:17 PM

The steel is/was the same 1080 I have been using lately. I had been using O1 for many years. It requires a slower quench. Simple carbons demand a faster quench, and 1095 even faster. Brine could have been used, but with the same risk of breakage. I tried a couple of times using the slower oil and could not get the results I was used to, so the last time after a couple normalizing cycles, I just plunged it into the water bucket I use while grinding. To compound matters some more, the bucket was not deep enough to get the whole blade in. It was a bad all around. I remade the knife starting that day and ordered some faster quenching oil. Things have been looking up from there.

I made a small test blade from the same steel, using the newly aquired knowledge and tools. I put it through hell. came out well. I then sent it to a friend to do further testing. First off he drove it through a 2X4, cut 2 liter bottles, drywall, cardboard, carpet, coffee can....I think he even run it over with his truck. Still loves it.

Paul

xxo

07-21-2010, 06:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmO0XSWhV04

Madnumforce

07-22-2010, 07:42 PM

I've already seen this kind of faillure on the TrailMaster... So whether there really is many lemons and unlucky customers, whether there is a flaw in the design and/or HT. Anyway, for this price, we could expect better.

But one thing is sure: the guy filming should get himself another laugh.

xxo

07-22-2010, 07:59 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Nutnfancy/BustedRecon720.jpg

Same thing happened to nutnfancy's recon scout, posted on pg 1.

lafayette

07-23-2010, 01:26 PM

I know this has been debated hundred of times, but when one uses a knife this way, it may break. Even with very tough knives, like Busses. This summer, I tried to split a log this way, with my SAR 8. It was oak. I could see the blade bending and taking few amazing angles for a straight blade....I stopped right away and I took my axe. It would have killed me to break such a beautiful knife so stupidly. I agree, a camp knife must be able to withstand a lot, but against oak...I don't mind to see someone using his knife this way, but if it breaks, it is its own responsability, not the maker's.

Noss

07-23-2010, 02:52 PM

I guess the wd40 didn't help. This type of failure is seen from time to time. Square cut tangs are not the best design. Much better if the tang has a radius instead of 90 degree cut outs. Breaking at the tang like this tells a lot and it's not just a coincidence it broke there. It clearly broke at the weakest point.

lafayette: I have never seen a photo of a Busse break during batoning or any video of it happening. Makers should take some responsibility for their knives failing. After all many makers like cold steel do some extreme advertising. They are selling you a bill of goods that says you can take our knives to hell in back without failure. I personally would prefer it be true what I'm being sold. Also many hard use knife makers live off the hype generated by owners of their knives and do very little if anything to shut it up so the word about how indestructible their blades are spreads all over again and again until something goes wrong and the knives aren't as bomb proof as all the marketing and user hype has made them out to be.

By the way I know without a doubt any of my Busse blades would have made it through that log that broke the trail master. I know my CS kukri machete would have succeeded also.

Madnumforce

07-23-2010, 03:52 PM

Yeah, the fact is that Cold Steel advertise about this kind of knife being indestructible. And batonning in cold wheather is not really extreme, many well made camp knives could handle it. Or even not so well made ones, if the steel is soft and bend instead of breaking, which though not very good, is much better than having a useless broken knife. That's always the hardness/sharpness VS. toughness dilemma. Cold Steel made a choice, and as Noss pointed out, that the result with this tang/blade transition geometry. They have the choice to HT the steel softer or use a different on, and/or change tang/blade transition geometry, if they want the TrailMaster to pass this normal succesfully, and not take the risk to be labelled trendy loudmouths.

xxo

07-23-2010, 08:00 PM

A few ppl have broke Busse's including Cliff Stamp (don't remember if any broke at the tang though):

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m186/RokJok/knives/Busse-CliffsBasic7v3.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136634&page=2

Thanks Dingy for bringing the zombie thread back to life!

Noss

07-23-2010, 09:13 PM

The Cliff Stamp Busse took two years to break and was finally broke with a sledge hammer it did not break by just batoning wood with wood. It was a basic 7 but cliff had sharpened it so much that it was much smaller then the original size. Jerry told me this story. This knife made Cliff a believer in Busse knives.

There have been some damaged here and there but it was usually the result of some pretty extreme stuff. I haven't seen any suffer catastrophic failure from batoning wood with wood though. If someone knows of one failing like this post it.

Madnumforce

07-23-2010, 09:30 PM

When you read the story of that Basic #7, you can't say it's a fail. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Noss

07-23-2010, 09:36 PM

I agree. That knife was put through pure hell for two years before the end. He did all kinds of crazy stuff with it. It was one used and abused Busse.

kurodrago

07-24-2010, 07:55 AM

I agree. That knife was put through pure hell for two years before the end. He did all kinds of crazy stuff with it. It was one used and abused Busse.

I wonder why someone like Cliff Stamp did that for 2 years? Money? Friendship between him & Jerry?
Why.... busse knife for 2 years and not another company knife for 2......years?

In any case who is the man that not follows God words..in this special case Cliff Stamp God.

Speculation......go.......:D

xxo

07-24-2010, 08:25 AM

Mike Turber wrote an excellent on line article about a Busse basic 9 vs. the CS Trailmaster.....if I remeber right, he broke both of them by flexing in a vise.....pretty good write up - unfortunately seems to have disappeared from the net.

dingyu1980

07-24-2010, 12:47 PM

i know that test , very creative one.

Madnumforce

07-24-2010, 01:06 PM

There nothing that can't be broken. I also can break a toothpick in a vise. I just take lot less force than a TrailMaster, and certainly lot lot less than a .200"+ thick Busse. Breaking a Busse takes two years of intensive extreme use (and all the regrinding job done with the feet alters significantly original characteristics), or two hours of Noss purpose-designed destructive testing. Breaking a well maintained Busse during normal use (batonning and such) is extremely unlikely, while though not very common, TrailMaster breaking during normal use happens, and most people see simple solutions to improve it: radiusing the tang/blade jounction, give up some hardness points for much toughness, etc... It's also true that the TrailMaster and, for exemple, a CGFBM are not at all in the same price range, but it's not a reason for CS not to improve these simple things.