Madnumforce, let's test your Douk Douk and my Japanese folder.

[The Tourist]

Madnumforce, a few days ago we were discussing the various attributes of the common, yet functional EDCs. I have never owned a Douk Douk, and many here have not seen a Japanese laminate folder. I ordered one, it arrived today, and I 'sharpened' it.:thumb:

Well, truth be told I put a 200 dollar edge on a 15 dollar knife.

LOL, I threw the kitchen sink at it! Every tool! Every trick! From using an Edge Pro to cut a new blade road, to Keith's Hand American corian fixture, to a 3x9 Japanese 12,000 grit stone! I also used five other EP stones, three grades of paper and two grades of paste on glaziers glass--I even chucked in a real-deal horsehide strop for good measure!

We got home at 1500 CST hours, and it's 1915 CST hours now!

The edge floats through both of the bias' on a sheet of newsprint without a hesitation or a drag. In other words, Madnumforce, I did my best to stack the deck and make this a fun and lively debate and demonstration.

BTW, this will be my first official test here at KT. I do not know the rules or the expectations. What should we do?

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/001-15.jpg

[Madnumforce]

I doubt I could make the Douk as sharp as you made this folding Kiridashi. Mainly because a 0.45% carbon steel can't take the same edge as a 1.1% one. But in fact, even if it could, I wouldn't do it. I'm too impatient to spend so many time to sharpen a blade (and the cutting edge of the Douk is longer than the edge of that Kiridashi), but also because... I don't need it, and it would be useless. Being a softer steel, it wouldnt hold the edge very long. Personnaly, just 2 minutes on a Belgian Blue Stone (grit 4000) and some passes on the leather, and it's OK for me. So I'm OK to do whatever test you might imagine, but just keep in mind that the Douk is not a collector show piece to impress fellow collectors (or your clients, as your are semi-pro honer), but a user knife, meant to be used without particular care at no particulary extreme sharpness requiring jobs, but able to be sharpened fast and easy. Some even sharpen their Douk with a basic kitchen honing steel. It just wears the blade much faster, but it's sufficient considering sharpness for a basic everyday use.

[kurodrago]

Nice Tourist, can you take a pic of Japanese 12,000 grit stone:thumb:

[Noss]

It's on !!!! :rockon::D:D

[The Tourist]

One of the things I've learned on knife forums is that most of the members are great fans, or serious collectors or they work in the cutlery industry.

However, there are thousands of lurkers--regular guys who buy the regular line of Buck, Spyderco or Gerber. They just want stuff that functions and they need a little info.

If all we do is give them an endless diet of Grahams, Striders or Emersons, what benefit do they derive? But there are millions of Opinels, Douk Douks and mundane little kiridashi style knives out there doing daily chores.

I figured that over the next week I'd cut a hot-dog, open some mail and show the slit, dice an apple, etc. In other words, the same type of chores you might do with your Douk Douk.

As for the polish, I just got bored because I'm in the middle of a thunderstorm. In times like this I spend way too much time on the computer--and I type fast! It's better for me to re-channel that time into sharpening or waxing a bike.

Hey, we have the knives already. What do you do with yours that I could do here?

[Noss]

Okay, here is something I do a lot with my Douk Douk. I open Copenhagen cans.
I have probably opened over 500 of them with it. I know I do it to much but it's just so damn good. :rockon::D

Procedure: cut the paper with the tip. Then insert the tip under the lid and cut the wax seal. Extreme stuff.:eek: :D ( you can see all the wax on the tip )

http://www.knifetest.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=806&d=1275788368

[The Tourist]

Of all of the things I've done in life (or will admit to) I have never dipped. Now, my Granddad chewed from a pouch, and I think that sight is what stopped me!

Truth be told, I'm a slicer. I usually place the blade and pull/push the tip down and backwards. In fact, I rarely use lateral stress on a blade, and in fact, I do not remember the last time I did.

But as a newer member here, I would kind of like to get the feel of valid testing. I know what I'd like to see, but I do not know what folks expect.

[Madnumforce]

Hum, well... I could cut paper of course, apples, tomatoes and sweet pepper, cardboard, paracord (to demonstrate how a straight edge is as good as cutting rope and webbing as serrated edges), carve some soft wood, open a can the rustic way (but I advise you not to try this with the Kiridashi, it would most probably ruin the point you took so many time to polish), and show you the trick to open a bottle (use the butt of the Douk as cap lifter, basically the same thing than openning a bottle with a BIC lighter). I don't see much more "tests" to simulate everyday use. There would be cutting saucisson (a french ligthly salted and dried pork meat specialty), but as it's completly impossible for you to find it, there is no point. But be advised that's the only logical reason I see why french knives have a thin edge.

But here, it's a sunny week-end, and tomorrow I'm going to a kind of medieval fair (in a medieval town) with some friends. Considering the Hippocras they had last year, don't expect me to be able to post anything till monday. And I don't have any tomato or sweet pepper left right now, I would have to wait till monday also to buy some. And I may also buy a camera tripod.

[The Tourist]

Nice Tourist, can you take a pic of Japanese 12,000 grit stone:thumb:

No prob. It's just a 3x9 inch Japanese waterstone I purchase from Ben Dale at Edge Pro. Obviously from the instructions inside the box it comes from Japan. I find it invaluable in polishing the obverse sides of debas and yanagibas. A touch of nagura...

Edit: BTW, the plastic box says "Shapton." Just who bought who out?

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/003-1.jpg

[The Tourist]

would most probably ruin the point you took so many time to polish.

I'm not worried, I know a tinker who works cheap.;)

I did this more for fun. It's been so deathly serious around here that I thought I needed a good laugh and a few wisecracks from the members here.

I will take your advice. We use tomatoes and red and yellow peppers in salads. I'll slice or dice some this week, and show you the quality of the work.

[Noss]

I Never thought I would be using cope either it just kind of happened.

As far as testing and what people expect here. My advice is try and do some tests that get the point across. If testing for toughness and strength then don't do things like cut apples or tomatoes and claim it's a tough knife because this type of thing just does not work here. It works on other forums but not here.

For sharpness you can use the paper cut test, newspaper etc. Cutting abilities can range wide and far so cutting your basic items like cardboard,rope, meat,fruit ect.

Edge retention testing should should be on the same media such as sisal rope. It is a good idea to have a way of gauging the sharpness level before and after. There are different methods for this such as using a scale to measure cut pressure of a thread or during push or slice cutting of the rope. Just use your imagination but try and get your point across and most important have something to back up your arguments.

[The Tourist]

My advice is try and do some tests that get the point across...and most important have something to back up your arguments.

Oh, no prob there. One of my pet peeves is chest-thumping on the internet. Yikes, just tell the truth!

I feel so strongly about this that I go overboard. If someone says, "Chico I need more info," then I take a picture, and darn near write my biography.

One of my favorite authors was Elmer Keith. He was known for never lying. There was once some serious controversy about a 600 yard shot he took to stop a wounded deer. After being bashed in numerous gun magazines, one editor ended the argument by writing, "I believe Elmer made the shot. It's because he said so."

My past is not so pristine. But I don't have the time, energy and memory to lie to the degree I endure from others on the computer. As stated, a fellow sharpening forum member (Buzzard767) once flew from Florida to Wisconsin just to see if I existed! I wasn't mad, but it demonstrates our problem.

[kurodrago]

Thanks for the pic Tourist,:) Japanese stones..seems that this company make a series, practically the cost little:eek:
http://www.rakuten.co.jp/jikko/685215/685216/685217/


This is my Higonokami $4 knife.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/kurolupo/IMG_4179.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/kurolupo/th_MVI_4176.jpg (http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/kurolupo/?action=view&current=MVI_4176.flv)




Noss
There is a war & will always be a war in the net; even if you back up your arguments on video or pic....
not everyone will think you are right, on the contrary they disagree.
Strange formula, but it is what it is!

[Noss]

Noss
There is a war & will always be a war in the net; even if you back up your arguments on video or pic....
not everyone will think you are right, on the contrary they disagree.
Strange formula, but it is what it is!


True. But the one who has the proof and evidence always wins the argument over the one who just brings nothing but hot air to the table. At least in my book it does.

ACTIONS ALWAYS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!

[The Tourist]

Kurodrago, the video of the knife slicing paper is pretty closee to the slices I made on newsprint.

A friend of mine in Wyoming and I describe our really "toasty" knives as slicing 'twice and twain.' That is, the knife must cut smoothly without hesitation through both of the bias' of a single sheet. It's a good test.

The bias might seem slight, after all, it's just paper. But once in a while I have a knife simply glide through the side of the newsprint, and just refuse to cut along the top edge.

I also believe in the Japanese idiom of "tickling the dragon." It's a bizarre and dangerous practice of placing three fingers lightly on the edge of a freshly sharpened knife. If the knife is extremely sharp, you will feel tiny piranha nibbling at your fingerprints. It is from the slight bounce you get from your heart beating.

Ya' know, maybe we should start looking around for cheap knives! If a sharpener can polish a Strider, does that show anything? But if a guy can shave with an Opinel, he just might have talent...:D

[kurodrago]

True. But the one who has the proof and evidence always wins the argument over the one who just brings nothing but hot air to the table. At least in my book it does.

ACTIONS ALWAYS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS !!!!

Goes without saying:thumb:



I also believe in the Japanese idiom of "tickling the dragon." It's a bizarre and dangerous practice of placing three fingers lightly on the edge of a freshly sharpened knife. If the knife is extremely sharp, you will feel tiny piranha nibbling at your fingerprints. It is from the slight bounce you get from your heart beating.


I believe that any knife is dangerous, unsafe in the hands of those who don't know how to use or sharp!:D

[The Tourist]

I believe that any knife is dangerous, unsafe in the hands of those who don't know how to use or sharp!:D

Oh, I do, too. I'm speaking to our audience here. In my short time as a member here it's clear that folks have a pretty wide spectrum of knowledge. For example, I used the catch all phrase "Japanese laminate." I read your response and you used the correct term 'kiridashi.' Not many people I meet or for whom I sharpen know the individual names for these knives, much less the nomenclature of a Japanese blade. I think we draw professionals here.

It's like the definition of 'clip' as opposed to 'magazine.' It used to bother me. Now I'm tickled to death if a client knows simple lingo like 'ricasso' and 'swedge.'

As a younger woman my wife would admonish me to "not get them so sharp." Now she owns an Hattori.

I'll tell you this--it happens every time. When the discussion of knives comes up, I might volunteer that I am a professional tinker. If a potential client wants to see an edge, I might hand him my EDC with the caveat, "Do not touch the edge!"

Without fail, every idiot 'thumbs' the blade.

What is it about the words 'professional' and 'sharpener' and 'do not' strung together in the same sentence make people think, "I wonder if he's kidding..."

[kurodrago]

Oh, I do, too. I'm speaking to our audience here. In my short time as a member here it's clear that folks have a pretty wide spectrum of knowledge. For example, I used the catch all phrase "Japanese laminate." I read your response and you used the correct term 'kiridashi.' Not many people I meet or for whom I sharpen know the individual names for these knives, much less the nomenclature of a Japanese blade. I think we draw professionals here.

It's like the definition of 'clip' as opposed to 'magazine.' It used to bother me. Now I'm tickled to death if a client knows simple lingo like 'ricasso' and 'swedge.'

As a younger woman my wife would admonish me to "not get them so sharp." Now she owns an Hattori.

I'll tell you this--it happens every time. When the discussion of knives comes up, I might volunteer that I am a professional tinker. If a potential client wants to see an edge, I might hand him my EDC with the caveat, "Do not touch the edge!"

Without fail, every idiot 'thumbs' the blade.

What is it about the words 'professional' and 'sharpener' and 'do not' strung together in the same sentence make people think, "I wonder if he's kidding..."

I think that a 95% of knife nuts don't know how to sharp..and they will give you any excuse to justify they self.
I strong belief is you don't have a strong connection, "not just goin deep on subjects and why"... need a good motivation if you miss that...I don't care how good you're ..u never learn. This goes for knives, guns, languages...ect.
I don't trust magazine writers.

[Madnumforce]

I don't trust magazine writers.

Much morrons. Here, most magazine writers don't know the name of the classical polishing tools, have very rough knowledge of metalurgy, and often serve quite a lot of bullshit. There is a european guy who is forging katanas out of CPM D2 (and when I say forging, I mean "traditionnal" forging with charcoal, hammer, multiples heatings, etc), and there was some kind of magazine writer sucker who said these katanas are better than the actual japanese masterpieces. I just let you appreciate without anymore comment the complete foolishness of this morron.


By the way, about a more destructive kind of testing, for the moment I can't do this in my small flat. But maybe it's time to elaborate a testing protocol for lightduty folders. Noss traditionnal testing protocol can't be applied to most folders of the market, so we would have to find one, in the spirit of Knifetests.com, that would be adapted and pertinent for folders.

[The Tourist]

I don't trust magazine writers.

I trust fewer people as I age, but I never trust a guy who sells advertising space to one of his clients who provides test products. You just have to speak the lingo.

If a magazine writer uses a phrase like, "our test product was not indicative of the fine quality we have come to expect and enjoy," that means the piece of junk fell apart.

If the product gets a stellar review, look at the next page in the magazine--you will undoubtedly find an advertisement for that same item.

[kurodrago]

Much morrons. Here, most magazine writers don't know the name of the classical polishing tools, have very rough knowledge of metalurgy, and often serve quite a lot of bullshit. There is a european guy who is forging katanas out of CPM D2 (and when I say forging, I mean "traditionnal" forging with charcoal, hammer, multiples heatings, etc), and there was some kind of magazine writer sucker who said these katanas are better than the actual japanese masterpieces. I just let you appreciate without anymore comment the complete foolishness of this morron.


Nice story:thumb:
Too much stupid Ethics, Agenda's, Manipulation, Falsification, Personal Interests, and few other words more, is part of business!

Fellas..lets not forget that if we read the same word a million times over..
We may believe it.








I trust fewer people as I age, but I never trust a guy who sells advertising space to one of his clients who provides test products. You just have to speak the lingo.

If a magazine writer uses a phrase like, "our test product was not indicative of the fine quality we have come to expect and enjoy," that means the piece of junk fell apart.

If the product gets a stellar review, look at the next page in the magazine--you will undoubtedly find an advertisement for that same item.


Well, forums they will bite you for free, magazines you must pay to get a bite!