Spyderco Bill Moran Drop Point

[HailTheNewDawn]

I really like Spyderco knives. I EDC'd a Dragonfly for years until I lost it in a move. I know it's a small knife, but I work in a white collar environment and it is nearly invisible and very lightweight. Sadly, I lost it in a move earlier this year. It was replaced with a CRKT M-16. Twenty bucks from WallyWorld. I left it in the kitchen at work and it disappeared.

I never lost a knife in my life and had two go south on me in six months. Now I am carrying a Benchmade Pardue that I hope to hell I can hang on to.

Anyway, back on topic, how about testing the Moran from Spyderco? It's cheap enough and I'm really curious how it would hold up.

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderc/images/SPFB02POR.jpg

[culpeper]

Who is Bill Moran? I like the orange.

I have a few knives I can name that are sitting on top of a water main about 10 feet underground in different parts of Clear Lake, Texas. Always remember to bring your pocket knife out of the hole.

[wildjim]

Who is Bill Moran? I like the orange.

I have a few knives I can name that are sitting on top of a water main about 10 feet underground in different parts of Clear Lake, Texas. Always remember to bring your pocket knife out of the hole.

Bill Moran seems a great blade smith!

I believe the SpyderCo Bill Moran knife is nothing more than the design shape of one of his knives.

Wholesale price for the SpyderCo Bill Moran VG-10 steel knife is $60 and MSRP is $120, too much money even at wholesale. It seems the bulk of the price is for Bill Moran's signature, dispicable! : (

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?storyid=46563

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021402058.html

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=4057

http://www.knifeart.com/inwitbilmorb.html

http://www.legendaryknifemakers.com/makers/moran-bill/index.php

[jankerson]

Bill Moran seems a great blade smith!

I believe the SpyderCo Bill Moran knife is nothing more than the design shape of one of his knives.

Wholesale price for the SpyderCo Bill Moran VG-10 steel knife is $60 and MSRP is $120, too much money even at wholesale. It seems the bulk of the price is for Bill Moran's signature, dispicable! : (

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?storyid=46563

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021402058.html

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=4057

http://www.knifeart.com/inwitbilmorb.html

http://www.legendaryknifemakers.com/makers/moran-bill/index.php



They can be bought at Knife Center for $56 right now. ;)

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SPFB02POR

So I guess any knife that costs more than $10 is too much huh..... :jerkit:

There is a lot more to the knife world than Wal-Mart, Gas Stations and Flea Markets.....

Inferior junk made with sub standard materials and poor workmanship taken from coping others designs and using the cheapest possible materials. Way too much of that garbage on the market.

There are a lot of good affordable knives on the market in the $30 to $50 range made by good reputable Companies. ;)

Knives don't have to cost $500 to be good, but there is a big difference between quality and the garbage that is out there.

[wildjim]

They can be bought at Knife Center for $56 right now. ;)

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SPFB02POR

So I guess any knife that costs more than $10 is too much huh..... :jerkit:

There is a lot more to the knife world than Wal-Mart, Gas Stations and Flea Markets.....

Inferior junk made with sub standard materials and poor workmanship taken from coping others designs and using the cheapest possible materials. Way too much of that garbage on the market.

There are a lot of good affordable knives on the market in the $30 to $50 range made by good reputable Companies. ;)

Knives don't have to cost $500 to be good, but there is a big difference between quality and the garbage that is out there.


You must have a promo code? The link states 76.95!

I would think the $10 Rough Rider full tang 4 inch blade will do anything that SpyderCo "Bill Moran" sales gimmick knife will do!

In fact I'd wager a $10 bet!

[jankerson]

You must have a promo code? The link states 76.95!

I would think the $10 Rough Rider full tang 4 inch blade will do anything that SpyderCo "Bill Moran" sales gimmick knife will do!

In fact I'd wager a $10 bet!

It won't believe me...

Just on blade steel alone will tell anyone that. ;)

[wildjim]

I guess if I believed that every camping trip is a life and death whimsical magical adventure that required excalibur, then I might spend more on a knife but then again I could just pull it out of the stone ; )

[jankerson]

I guess if I believed that every camping trip is a life and death whimsical magical adventure that required excalibur, then I might spend more on a knife but then again I could just pull it out of the stone ; )

Quality costs money...

R&D Costs Money

Good Steel Costs Money

Good Quality Heat Treatment Costs money

Good Materials and Workmanship Costs money

You just Ain't going to get those things with a $10 or $20 knife.....

[wildjim]

Quality costs money...

R&D Costs Money

Good Steel Costs Money

Good Quality Heat Treatment Costs money

Good Materials and Workmanship Costs money

You just Ain't going to get those things with a $10 or $20 knife.....

Its 2010 we have the technology!

Even the pricey knives are mass produced in the same manner.

I could understand the cost for a hand forged knife but why bother when a basic $10 - $20 2010 knife will get the job done and then some.

[jankerson]

Its 2010 we have the technology!

Even the pricey knives are mass produced in the same manner.

I could understand the cost for a hand forged knife but why bother when a basic $10 - $20 2010 knife will get the job done and then some.


You will never understand what quality really means because you can't get past the cost issue. ;)

Most of the more pricey knives have some hand fitting also....

They aren't just stamped out on machines etc... Basically thrown together...

[wildjim]

You will never understand what quality really means because you can't get past the cost issue. ;)

A $15 CS Kukri is just as tough as a $500 Busse or close enough as proven here!

Its Noss's fault the way I view knives now ; )

[jankerson]

A $15 CS Kukri is just as tough as a $500 Busse or close enough as proven here!

Its Noss's fault the way I view knives now ; )

That's a Machete, not a knife.... Huge difference there....

The CS Kurkie costs a hell of a lot more than $15...

I will let Noss ring in on that one....

No they are not as tough as a $500 Busse.... ROFL

[wildjim]

That's a Machete, not a knife.... Huge difference there....

The CS Kurkie costs a hell of a lot more than $15...

I will let Noss ring in on that one....

No they are not as tough as a $500 Busse.... ROFL

Actually the CS Kukri has a lot of avantages (speed, weight, cost, easy replacement) over a heavy bladed knife like the Busse.

And unless I am hammer chopping through cement block and iron to China it does the same job!

[jankerson]

Actually the CS Kukri has a lot of avantages (speed, weight, cost, easy replacement) over a heavy bladed knife like the Busse.

And unless I am hammer chopping through cement block and iron to China it does the same job!

I will say it again....


That's a Matchete...

This is the Kurki KNIFE

http://www.coldsteel.com/gurkhakukri.html

Here for $179

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CS39LGKT

[Madnumforce]

Quality costs money...

R&D Costs Money

Good Steel Costs Money

Good Quality Heat Treatment Costs money

Good Materials and Workmanship Costs money

You just Ain't going to get those things with a $10 or $20 knife.....

In fact, it's all a question of balance. It's not because it's cheap that it's bad quality, but there really is a reason to question quality when things are outrageously cheap. I have nothing about chinese made knives, in fact they could do the exact same job for only a fraction of the price than a european or american company would (except if there is craftmanship involved). But makers rarely produce in China thinking to the final owner/user, but to increase margins and profits. It means they will use local steel, often not as good as the american/european/japanese counterpart (though they brand under the same naming norm), they keep lemons (more tolerance in quality control), they don't control HT as well as it would be in America/Europe/Japan, etc...

On some knives, it's not really a problem, as they are designed to be rustic, have rustic steel, etc... but when you come to higher tech products, for exemple high quality modern steels with 20° tolerances in HT, etc, it can make a difference. That's why there is no need to produce machete in the US, but rather they can be produced in developping countries like South America, South Africa, China and such. But you can't compare what's basically a brush clearing tool that happily found heavier applications to a tank like a Busse BM.

For light tasks, where there is no risk of failure involved, and if ever it happens it isn't a problem, paying over 120$ is not at all necessary. Some still buy CRK though :D . When there is a high risk of failure involved, but it's not a problem (in your backyard, for exemple), you can either choose to take something cheap and accept it will break and change it, or pay extra $$$ for something that even though the failure risk is high, is designed to hold. But when it's a serious matter, whatever the risk of failure, you better have to choose quality, cause your health, life, familly is worth more than 500$.

[xxo]

I have a spyderco Moran, and it is an excellent little utility/outdoors/camp/hunting knife!

Since the both have plastic/rubber handles over a partial tang, you can compare it to the $15 Mora clipper for basic construction. Why does the Moran cost more ($80 vs $15)?

1. the blade is thicker wider and made of VG10 which is more expensive to work with than 12c27/12c27M used on the Mora's. VG10 is usually laser cut and ground while 12C27 can be blanked/stamped out in near finished state. The Moran also has a full flat grind vs. a less costly scandi grind on the Mora. I would guesstimate the Moran's VG10 blade adds about $25 to the price over the Mora.

2. the Moran comes with a much better concealex sheath. A custom sheath of comparable quality would probably cost at least $40. If you value the Mora clipper sheath (generously) at $5 that's $35 added to the Moran.

3. The Moran uses tougher plastic (FRN) for the handle, has a little better fit and finish and a generally better factory edge. I would say about +$5 for all of this at least.


All of these things added together explains why the Moran is $80 and the clipper is $15. Is it worth it? That depends on your point of view, they are both knives, so maybe the clipper is the better bang for the buck or maybe a $1 bait knife from walmart is better still (how can the Mora be 15 times better?) or maybe a 25 cent razor blade will get the job done, or better still a piece of broken glass that doesn't cost anything? All depends on your perspective I guess.


PS I am not trying to knock the Mora clipper, I have a couple of them and I like them a lot, just trying to show why the Spyderco costs and is worth more.

[Noss]

I really like Spyderco knives. I EDC'd a Dragonfly for years until I lost it in a move. I know it's a small knife, but I work in a white collar environment and it is nearly invisible and very lightweight. Sadly, I lost it in a move earlier this year. It was replaced with a CRKT M-16. Twenty bucks from WallyWorld. I left it in the kitchen at work and it disappeared.

I never lost a knife in my life and had two go south on me in six months. Now I am carrying a Benchmade Pardue that I hope to hell I can hang on to.

Anyway, back on topic, how about testing the Moran from Spyderco? It's cheap enough and I'm really curious how it would hold up.

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderc/images/SPFB02POR.jpg



I'll consider it. Thanks

[kurodrago]

A $15 CS Kukri is just as tough as a $500 Busse or close enough as proven here!

Its Noss's fault the way I view knives now ; )

I agree, and I also agree that you should pay the price of a good quality.... not the Fame of the Name price!



That's a Machete, not a knife.... Huge difference there....

The CS Kurkie costs a hell of a lot more than $15...

I will let Noss ring in on that one....

No they are not as tough as a $500 Busse.... ROFL


I wonder why people like you go out and spread the word about BUSSE?
Seriously what you get 50% discount every time you buy a Busse knife or what?

[jankerson]

I wonder why people like you go out and spread the word about BUSSE?
Seriously what you get 50% discount every time you buy a Busse knife or what?


Hardly... :D

I wasn't taking up for Busse, it was more about quaility. :thumb:

The knife in question was Spyderco. :)

[Jmd]

I agree, and I also agree that you should pay the price of a good quality.... not the Fame of the Name price!






I wonder why people like you go out and spread the word about BUSSE?
Seriously what you get 50% discount every time you buy a Busse knife or what?

Why wonder, buy one and find out.

I wonder why you would make a comment about the discount thing, you jealous or just looking for one?

[kurodrago]

jankerson answer the the boy for me:D

[Noss]

jankerson answer the the boy for me:D


You don't own any Busse knives. :p:D

[jankerson]

jankerson answer the the boy for me:D

You have a few. :D

[Noss]

You can buy some good low cost knives. They do exist. I don't mind paying for a good fixed blade but I'm not to quick to jump into buying a high dollar folder. I bought the RAO and it will more than likely be my last high dollar folder purchase for a long while but buy whatever makes you happy. :thumb:

[Noss]

You have a few. :D

No, I know for a fact he doesn't own any. :D

[Madnumforce]

I have a spyderco Moran, and it is an excellent little utility/outdoors/camp/hunting knife!

Since the both have plastic/rubber handles over a partial tang, you can compare it to the $15 Mora clipper for basic construction. Why does the Moran cost more ($80 vs $15)?

1. the blade is thicker wider and made of VG10 which is more expensive to work with than 12c27/12c27M used on the Mora's. VG10 is usually laser cut and ground while 12C27 can be blanked/stamped out in near finished state. The Moran also has a full flat grind vs. a less costly scandi grind on the Mora. I would guesstimate the Moran's VG10 blade adds about $25 to the price over the Mora.

2. the Moran comes with a much better concealex sheath. A custom sheath of comparable quality would probably cost at least $40. If you value the Mora clipper sheath (generously) at $5 that's $35 added to the Moran.

3. The Moran uses tougher plastic (FRN) for the handle, has a little better fit and finish and a generally better factory edge. I would say about +$5 for all of this at least.


All of these things added together explains why the Moran is $80 and the clipper is $15. Is it worth it? That depends on your point of view, they are both knives, so maybe the clipper is the better bang for the buck or maybe a $1 bait knife from walmart is better still (how can the Mora be 15 times better?) or maybe a 25 cent razor blade will get the job done, or better still a piece of broken glass that doesn't cost anything? All depends on your perspective I guess.


PS I am not trying to knock the Mora clipper, I have a couple of them and I like them a lot, just trying to show why the Spyderco costs and is worth more.

If you're right about the Spydie Moran being more expensive for good reasons, you're quite exagerating these prices.

It's true that generally, die cutting (like Mora's) is cheaper than laser cutting (and I doubt there is any other way with a VG10 3mm thick blade), and the steel itself is also more expensive, but in the end, it's not such a big difference in price per knife. Stamping the Mora blade must be under 2$, laser cutting the Moran is certainly under 10$. Grinding cost must be relatively close. If it's 200$ for 100 Clipper blades, it's 250$ for 100 Moran.

Also, industrial sheath molding is not that expensive. It is when made custom, cause when one person have to live from it and sells only 30 a month, he can't decrease the price under a certain limit. In materials, there is less than 4$. The whole sheath can certainly be made for less than 10$. But it's true that the Clipper's sheath is certainly under 3$.

But you neglected something. When you look at the spine of a Clipper, what do you see? The typical aspect of a raw die cutting. There is no finishing process except the machine mirror polish. On the other hand, the Moran have a nice finished spine, and a swedge. It's certainly machine made, but it immediatly means more steps in the manufacturing process, and certainly with computer controlled robots.

But the main thing is the quantity sold. When there is a production, there are charges for the knife itself, it's all the materials and manufacturing costs, but there are also lot of charges inherent to an economical activity, whatever your production and sells: taxes, wages, various charges (electricity, insurance, etc), sometimes shareholders dividends, etc... The more knives you sell, the more you can divide these charges and spread them over your whole production. And finally, depending if you sell 200 or 2000, these charge can represent more than half the price, or less than 20%.

In fact, Mora is not producing many models, and very rarely have new models, so they d'ont have to do much investments, most of there machines and tooling have certainly paid themselves many times. On the other hand, Spyderco and other brands have novelties each year, which means new tooling, maybe new machines, and anyway much work to put the new production in place, etc... They also have many many models, which means having many machines for optimum disponibility. All this is not free, and that's certainly where lies the reasons of the higher price of the Moran over the Clipper, rather than in materials. Not to mention that Moras are made on location, while the Moran (and much other models) are outsourced, this one in Japan. Though production itself is then cheaper, it means transport and customs fees, and less "reactivity".

[wildjim]

I will say it again....


That's a Matchete...

This is the Kurki KNIFE

http://www.coldsteel.com/gurkhakukri.html

Here for $179

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CS39LGKT

I know. . . ; )

The $15 CS Kukri 13 inch machete and CS 12 inch Sax, Bowie, Barong machetes are just big camp knives for me and will do anything a $500 Busse will do around my camp, end of story!

Back to topic and again the $10 Rough Rider 4 inch drop point will do anything the way over priced "SpyderCo" Bill Moran signature knife will do!

[Madnumforce]

I know. . . ; )

The $15 CS Kukri 13 inch machete and CS 12 inch Sax, Bowie, Barong machetes are just big camp knives for me and will do anything a $500 Busse will do around my camp, end of story!

Back to topic and again the $10 Rough Rider 4 inch drop point will do anything the way over priced "SpyderCo" Bill Moran signature knife will do!

It's not "way overpriced". It may be a bit, I mean it could certainly be sold 60$ if they were doing some savings (for exemple: novelties only every 5 years). But hings have to be paid. Do you think it's also overpiced to pay an american experienced nurse maybe 12$ an hour for helping giving birth to children and making the last days of your grand-father who has crabs as best as it can be, while for maybe 3$ an hour you can have a mexican or paki nurse comming right from the middle of the jungle who can "do the job"? You know that, somewhere, there is somebody who can "do your job" for 1/5 the price? Does it mean you're overpriced and 4/5 full of shit? No, of course, it doesn't. It just mean you're born, educated and formed, working and living in different conditions, in a different country, with diferrent ideas over what comfort and liberty is. The counterpart of a 4$ knife is misery and political and social oppresion where it's produced. Sure, on the 120$ MSRP of a Spyderco Bill Moran there is certainly undue profits and benefits, and that's also money we shouldn't be spending over this other form of dishonnesty (cause then, we are the ripped off and oppressed ones), but don't do like if the 4$ knife is the same as the 120$ one with just a different price tag.

[wildjim]

It's not "way overpriced". It may be a bit, I mean it could certainly be sold 60$ if they were doing some savings (for exemple: novelties only every 5 years). But hings have to be paid. Do you think it's also overpiced to pay an american experienced nurse maybe 12$ an hour for helping giving birth to children and making the last days of your grand-father who has crabs as best as it can be, while for maybe 3$ an hour you can have a mexican or paki nurse comming right from the middle of the jungle who can "do the job"? You know that, somewhere, there is somebody who can "do your job" for 1/5 the price? Does it mean you're overpriced and 4/5 full of shit? No, of course, it doesn't. It just mean you're born, educated and formed, working and living in different conditions, in a different country, with diferrent ideas over what comfort and liberty is. The counterpart of a 4$ knife is misery and political and social oppresion where it's produced. Sure, on the 120$ MSRP of a Spyderco Bill Moran there is certainly undue profits and benefits, and that's also money we shouldn't be spending over this other form of dishonnesty (cause then, we are the ripped off and oppressed ones), but don't do like if the 4$ knife is the same as the 120$ one with just a different price tag.

Your analogy sucks ; )

The truth is that maybe (?) I am screwing myself by buying foreign products but I didn't create the market environment and its better then getting screwed ten fold by Busse or SpyderCo or some other price gouger!

The best I can do is to get the most value and quality for my money!

Knives are easy to get great deals on and return for the money these days.

Why not take adavantage of the market?

[jankerson]

Your analogy sucks ; )

The truth is that maybe (?) I am screwing myself by buying foreign products but I didn't create the market environment and its better then getting screwed ten fold by Busse or SpyderCo or some other price gouger!

The best I can do is to get the most value and quality for my money!

Knives are easy to get great deals on and return for the money these days.

Why not take adavantage of the market?


Just keep buying those flea market knives.....

[wildjim]

Just keep buying those flea market knives.....

Just keep bending over for Busse. . . Maybe you'll get a reach around some day?

[jankerson]

Just keep bending over for Busse. . . Maybe you'll get a reach around some day?

Interesting....

I can sell everyone of them for more that I paid for them and the value just keeps going up. ;)

[Madnumforce]

Why not take adavantage of the market?

You can. In fact, it's a huge benefit for you right now. You pays 10$ what would cost 100 or 150 to produce in the US. It's true, it's a huge value for the money. But you are not. You may be for the moment, but it will not last forever. Sooner or later, and it's very likely to be in the next 10 or 15 years than for the next century, the job you're doing will also be done elsewhere by someone else for a fraction of the price. You certainly don't care that the extra money you spend on an american product go to an american worker, who can keep his job, and, as a side effect, keep the real national economy going. But when american factory workers are "happily" (for the rest of the population) replaced by chinese products, do you think it just stops there? It's mathematical that more and more of everything done in the country can be done cheaper elsewhere. We've allready seen call centers and such transfered in India (for english speaking country) or in Maghreb (for french speaking countries). It's worth shit? Of course! But the "job is done", and at a fraction of the price (for the employer). And you, as a a user, who can you complain to? All companies have done exactly the same, you don't have any choice left to have quality service. And anyway you get ripped off, cause soon all these companies increase their prices in a common agreement, sometimes even higher than the previous level.

There also is something extremely vicious. Because products prices drop virtually with subcontracting in low-cost countries, it allows governemental agencies to claim inflation is very low, even though it's actually completly false. The lack of control on national economies is a major problem for the peoples, but a huge advantage for bankers and other peoples who plays with money and live of its manipulation. Uncontrolled money creation should result in a very clear, unquestionnable and dangerous inflation, but with this artificial increase of purchasing power because there is more and more cheap foreign-made products allows to claim that "everything is under control" and that there is no problem, and thus there is no need for solutions. But one day we'll reach the limit of that vicious circle, and we won't be the winners.

[jankerson]

You can. In fact, it's a huge benefit for you right now. You pays 10$ what would cost 100 or 150 to produce in the US. It's true, it's a huge value for the money. But you are not. You may be for the moment, but it will not last forever. Sooner or later, and it's very likely to be in the next 10 or 15 years than for the next century, the job you're doing will also be done elsewhere by someone else for a fraction of the price. You certainly don't care that the extra money you spend on an american product go to an american worker, who can keep his job, and, as a side effect, keep the real national economy going. But when american factory workers are "happily" (for the rest of the population) replaced by chinese products, do you think it just stops there? It's mathematical that more and more of everything done in the country can be done cheaper elsewhere. We've allready seen call centers and such transfered in India (for english speaking country) or in Maghreb (for french speaking countries). It's worth shit? Of course! But the "job is done", and at a fraction of the price (for the employer). And you, as a a user, who can you complain to? All companies have done exactly the same, you don't have any choice left to have quality service. And anyway you get ripped off, cause soon all these companies increase their prices in a common agreement, sometimes even higher than the previous level.

There also is something extremely vicious. Because products prices drop virtually because of subcontracting in low-cost countries, it allows governemental agencies to claim inflation is very low, even though in reality it's completly false. The lack of control on national economies is a major problem for the peoples, but a huge advantage for bankers and other peoples who plays with money and live of its manipulation. Uncontrolled money creation should result in a very clear, unquestionnable and dangerous inflation, but with this artificial increase of purchasing power because there is more and more cheap foreign-made products allows to claim that "everything is under control" and that there is no problem, and thus there is no need for solutions. But one day we'll reach the limit of that vicious circle, and we won't be the winners.


We are already getting to that point now here in the US... :thumbdwn:

With unemployment still rising, Countless Millions of jobs that won't ever be back... They all are in China now supporting their Economy....

The US is heading for a real fall here soon along with Europe, Japan and China in the end.

It's coming, and it isn't that far off either because this time there isn't anything to bring the US out of it....

It's getting so bad now they are talking about permanent unemployment benefits....

[kurodrago]

You too look like Tom and Jerry:D

just another 'old thread:jerkit:
http://knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=950&highlight=bravo

[Madnumforce]

It's true it's an usual issue of disagreement. I hope no one is getting hard feelings on anyone because of these lively discussions. What matters is that we all are knives enthusiasts, and recognize the value, usefullness and information of Noss D-tests (independantly of the price of the knives tested).

So, it may be time to put an end to this quarrel now. Jankerson and I will stop arguing about that, and I'm asking Wildjim not to despise (though it may be a strong word) knives just because they are expensive. Price, though it's a very important factor in knife choice, is not intrinsic to the knife itself. We rely on Noss oecumenism to test cheap, middle priced or high priced knives as well with complete objectivity and without any bias.

[xxo]

If you're right about the Spydie Moran being more expensive for good reasons, you're quite exagerating these prices.

It's true that generally, die cutting (like Mora's) is cheaper than laser cutting (and I doubt there is any other way with a VG10 3mm thick blade), and the steel itself is also more expensive, but in the end, it's not such a big difference in price per knife. Stamping the Mora blade must be under 2$, laser cutting the Moran is certainly under 10$. Grinding cost must be relatively close. If it's 200$ for 100 Clipper blades, it's 250$ for 100 Moran.

Also, industrial sheath molding is not that expensive. It is when made custom, cause when one person have to live from it and sells only 30 a month, he can't decrease the price under a certain limit. In materials, there is less than 4$. The whole sheath can certainly be made for less than 10$. But it's true that the Clipper's sheath is certainly under 3$.

But you neglected something. When you look at the spine of a Clipper, what do you see? The typical aspect of a raw die cutting. There is no finishing process except the machine mirror polish. On the other hand, the Moran have a nice finished spine, and a swedge. It's certainly machine made, but it immediatly means more steps in the manufacturing process, and certainly with computer controlled robots.

But the main thing is the quantity sold. When there is a production, there are charges for the knife itself, it's all the materials and manufacturing costs, but there are also lot of charges inherent to an economical activity, whatever your production and sells: taxes, wages, various charges (electricity, insurance, etc), sometimes shareholders dividends, etc... The more knives you sell, the more you can divide these charges and spread them over your whole production. And finally, depending if you sell 200 or 2000, these charge can represent more than half the price, or less than 20%.

In fact, Mora is not producing many models, and very rarely have new models, so they d'ont have to do much investments, most of there machines and tooling have certainly paid themselves many times. On the other hand, Spyderco and other brands have novelties each year, which means new tooling, maybe new machines, and anyway much work to put the new production in place, etc... They also have many many models, which means having many machines for optimum disponibility. All this is not free, and that's certainly where lies the reasons of the higher price of the Moran over the Clipper, rather than in materials. Not to mention that Moras are made on location, while the Moran (and much other models) are outsourced, this one in Japan. Though production itself is then cheaper, it means transport and customs fees, and less "reactivity".

It costs a lot more to laser cut and full flat grind a VG10 blade than it does to fine blank (precision stamp) one out of 12cv27. You don't see many VG10 knives selling for under $20, infact they seem to start around $50 if using it cost so little the Chinese would be using it on their $10 flea market knives!


Also making the mora sheaths is once you have paid for the mold is nowhere near $3....more like 3 cents. Manufacturing cost are not the same as the price paid for retail on the net. If a knife manufacturer plans on staying in byuisness he needs to sell his products for at least twice his cost to make them, and the price is likely to double again with distributor and dealer markups. I would be surpised if the mora knives cost more than $3 to make.

The Moran sheath costs way more because there is a lot of hand work involved in making them.

[Madnumforce]

I agree that making a Spyderco Moran is much more expensive than a Mora Clipper. But if it costs 5$ to make a Clipper, it don't costs more than 20$ to make a Moran. VG10 is a good steel made in Japan, but 12C27 isn't precisely rubbish. It's made in Sweden and is also a good steel, but with less alloy elements for different applications and behaviour. It's not like a conventionnal to CPM steel price ratio.

It's just that Mora, and also Opinel, Cognet with the Douk, and some other makers are specialised in making these dirt cheap knives in high costs countries. They have only few models, made with simple and common materials and process, and are so renowned they don't need to advertise and such. They sell much to reach their profitability level, and take few margins on each. That's why they are kind of aliens compared to other brands. And also, can you imagine the financial adventure it is to put on at least 10 new products on the market every years (as Cold Steel, Benchmade, Spyderco, etc... do)? You need much money, bank credits, and then you have to pay back interests for years. Mora and such aren't taking these risks, they just run an usual production and sometimes, not twice in a decade, introduce a novelty.

[xxo]

I agree that making a Spyderco Moran is much more expensive than a Mora Clipper. But if it costs 5$ to make a Clipper, it don't costs more than 20$ to make a Moran. VG10 is a good steel made in Japan, but 12C27 isn't precisely rubbish. It's made in Sweden and is also a good steel, but with less alloy elements for different applications and behaviour. It's not like a conventionnal to CPM steel price ratio.

It's just that Mora, and also Opinel, Cognet with the Douk, and some other makers are specialised in making these dirt cheap knives in high costs countries. They have only few models, made with simple and common materials and process, and are so renowned they don't need to advertise and such. They sell much to reach their profitability level, and take few margins on each. That's why they are kind of aliens compared to other brands. And also, can you imagine the financial adventure it is to put on at least 10 new products on the market every years (as Cold Steel, Benchmade, Spyderco, etc... do)? You need much money, bank credits, and then you have to pay back interests for years. Mora and such aren't taking these risks, they just run an usual production and sometimes, not twice in a decade, introduce a novelty.

Well if it did cost $5 to make a mora that sells for $15-$20, wouldn't you expect a knife that costs $20 to make to sell for about $60-$80?


I would agree with the other things you mentioned (lower advertizing/marketing costs, ecconomy of scale ect) favoring the mora. My only point is that the Spyderco is not a rippoff because it costs more than the Mora. It costs a lot more to buy but also a lot more to make.

[wildjim]

Well if it did cost $5 to make a mora that sells for $15-$20, wouldn't you expect a knife that costs $20 to make to sell for about $60-$80?


I would agree with the other things you mentioned (lower advertizing/marketing costs, ecconomy of scale ect) favoring the mora. My only point is that the Spyderco is not a rippoff because it costs more than the Mora. It costs a lot more to buy but also a lot more to make.

Fact is that SpyderCo has a psyched fanboy customer base and over charges to the current market limit!
Why else would SpyderCo stamp a cheesy Bill Moran signature on a knife overprice it and sell it as something special!
You'd have to be a psyched fanboy to go for the $120 MSRP gimmick! They should just stamp it "Bill Moron"

[Madnumforce]

Well if it did cost $5 to make a mora that sells for $15-$20, wouldn't you expect a knife that costs $20 to make to sell for about $60-$80?


I would agree with the other things you mentioned (lower advertizing/marketing costs, ecconomy of scale ect) favoring the mora. My only point is that the Spyderco is not a rippoff because it costs more than the Mora. It costs a lot more to buy but also a lot more to make.

I never said it was a ripoff! I was just saying it might be a bit overpriced, but I'm not their accountant so it's just a guess. Certainly the customer pay for the "signature", while it's an industrial knife like any other. But if ever Noss test it, then we'll find out if it's worth the price. If it performs no better than a Clipper, it would be questionnable to put 80$ in a partial tang, though a hunter using it as a general hunting would certainly never reach the limits of the knife.

[Pointshoot]

Well I own several Spyderco Moran knives and theyre excellent. The handle is a joy in my hand and in use - very comfortable. They work for me as an EDC, a camp knife, and for field dressing big game. They are wonderful cutters, but not the kind of knife you'd want to stand on pounded into a tree. I may send one off to Tom Krein for a regrind to the original convex edge that Bill Moran first designed (The original Spydercos were convex). The concealex sheath is also well made. If you figure that a comparable custom sheath could run $30-40, that puts the knife itself at around $30 of the cost.
'Value' is something subjective and individual. - - I have cheaper knives than the Moran - - including a few Moras. I also have a few that are more expensive including some customs. But for the most part I tend to go for modestly priced knives that are rugged under tough use. Bill Moran was one of the legendary custom knife makers. His blades can go for five figures. Collectors pay those kind of numbers for an original - - a level that I'm not willing to pay. But having the chance to use a well designed knife like this is well worth it to me. - - - 'Knife knuts' tend to spend far more on knives than the general public. (Either in a few higher priced knives or a lot of the cheaper ones.) Undoubtedly, most non-knife knuts would be puzzled that anyone would spend so much on knives - - in money, time, and attention. "Different strokes for different follks, " - - -

[Madnumforce]

Interesting testimony, Pointshoot. Since how many time do you have these Spydie Morans?

By the way, welcome to the forum! You should introduce yourself in the dedicated section.

[Pointshoot]

Interesting testimony, Pointshoot. Since how many time do you have these Spydie Morans?

By the way, welcome to the forum! You should introduce yourself in the dedicated section.

I got my first Spyderco Moran maybe about 4-5 years ago, I think. - - As a 'knife knut' I tend to carry various knives - everything from a custom to a cheapie Mora depending on the task, or my mood. But, everytime I carry and use the Spyderco Moran I'm reminded of what a terrific design it is - - fits my hand really well. The knife weighs in at about 3 ounces and I wondered if the originals made by Bill Moran felt different in the hand & were heavier. Given that his knives are collectors and go for tens of thousands of dollars (minimum) I'm not likely to be able to fondle one of the originals. I recently looked at a book on Bill Moran and there was info on the original - - it weighs the same as the Spyderco version and looks the same except that the handle has some very fine decorative custom touches and is made from different material. (Also, it is convex rather than the full flat grind of the Spyderco.) Bill Moran chose this knife often as his EDC and said he spent decades perfecting the design. Sal Glesser (CEO of Spyderco) said that Mr. Moran thought it would be a great design to bring to wider production and talked him into manufacturing it as Spydercos first fixed blade knife. (Glesser came to Moran originally about collaborating on a folder. )
I would never argue with another man's priorities about how they spend their own hard earned dolllars or what they like. As I mentioned, I happen to be a huge Mora fan. You can get some terrific Moras - - such as the original wood handled traditional knife, Clipper, and Mora 2000 - - for around $ 10 - 30. Thats a lot of 'bang for the buck' in a quality knife. After having a concealex sheath made for the Mora - - my total cost is about the same as what I have into the Spyderco Moran. So to me, the Moran is an outstanding bargain in a well designed knife.
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