A Challenger to Busse

[Thecarotidpulse]

Ok here's the idea - same price range, same size knife (ish) 2 super steels.

We have the test on Busse's INFI and the FBM,
I suggest the biggest knife Fallkniven makes with another supersteel combo: VG10 and 420J2 stainless steel sides.

http://www.fallkniven.com/nothern/tor.htm

MOD NL1
NL1

Overall length:
385 mm (15.15")

Blade length:
254 mm (10")

Blade width: 42 mm (1.65")
Blade thickness:
7 mm (0.28")

Weight (knife):
520 g (1.15 lbs)

Steel:
Laminated VG10/420J2

Blade hardness:
59 HRC

Butt cap: Alumina
Guard: Stainless, specially anchored
Handle in brown leather: 132 mm (5.2")
Sheath: Brown leather


Expensive test, but a duel to be called for!

[Thecarotidpulse]

By the way,

If you contact Peter, the owner of FK, and mention that you need a knife for D testing- he may send you a U2 folder for free with their 3G steel (i've seen him do it for other outdoors magazines)



Just a thought.

[Macgregor]

It would probly act like the other Fallkniven tested(a1) which did very well and was on top of the charts for awhile.

It is a big beutifful knife though.

[miro44one]

Would definitley be interesting, though expensive..

[Noss]

I would love to test one. It is a very nice looking big blade.

[lafayette]

If you make this test, I will go crazy : those knives are my two favorite. Well, I got an Odin, not a Thor (the blade is 8 ", I chose this size because I had already the Batlle Mistress).
I make a bet : the Busse is definetely stronger (especially the tip, the BFFM is heavier, the handle is micarta, not leather, etc ), but the Fallkniven is a better cutter (in my opinion, the grind is more effective) and more polyvalent (it can chop, cut meat or prepare game).
There is only one thing I don't like with Fallkniven : their sheath. This one (made from thick brown leather) looks better, but it is not; I made a week long hike and the knife was attached on the backpack. Afeter few days, you could feel the knife loose in the sheath....

[eatingmuchface]

has anyone ever noticed how simliar this knife is to the CS trailmaster?
I would think it would be better to compare it to that if noss testes one.
:D

[lafayette]

yes, you are right, the blade shape is vey similar. And this knife is also an excellent chopper. But though both are convex, I think the fallkniven's grind is a bit thinner. And the leather handle makes it a great looking knife, whereas, the CS handle is not very original and is a bit too thin. Moreover, it is not made from carbon V anymore and it is a pity.

[eatingmuchface]

well, it's a lmainated design as the fallkniven, it has a similar blade shape, handle shape and a convex grind.

I guess they both different a little, but thats why it would make an interesting test.

[lafayette]

Sure. Those knives are all good anyway.

[Thecarotidpulse]

Lafayette,

Je me demandais si tu pourrias ajouter des photos de ton Odin en action? Habitue aux machettes/kukris je me demande comment une lame aussi forte a couper se comporterait lorsqu'on lui propose des taches plus assidues.
(excuses pour le manque d'accents)

Aussi des photos de camping que tu aurais peut-etre? Quelle region de la France? Je viens originellement de Montreal QC moi-meme mais j'ai fait le CNED de l'elementaire au lycee.

Sorry for the sudden language change guys, just asking Lafayette for some pics of his Odin in action :)


A+
Pulse

[Madnumforce]

In my opinion, though the Thor could be a better chopper, it certainly can't be as strong as the Busse. First of all, the rat tail tang, for a normal use it can be as good, but for a destruction test it won't certainly take as well the strikes of the iron mallet, for exemple. Also, this knife is designed for an intensive and extreme but classical outdoor use, not to chop trough concrete as the Battlemistress did so well. But i might be wrong, i am not really aware of the capabilities of the VG10. But anyway, at least a "chopping shootout" like with the A1 could be very interesting, and maybe then only a destruction test.

[lafayette]

thecarotidpulse : thanks to speak in french !!!! I wil try to make some pictures tomorrow. I made this hike in Corsica, from Porto Vecchio to Propriano. It is not a hard hike (about 5 days walking).

Madnimforce : I agree, the Busse is probably stronger. I will make some shots of the Rat, the Busse and the Odin. Well, I will not destroy them.

[lafayette]

http://www.hiboox.fr/go/albums/divers/busse-odintest,dcfe293a32cd741481a2e06273bef009


Hello,

Here are some photos; I used only the odin and the Busse. I also made two videos. I send them asap.
To sum up :

the Busse is, of course, a better chopper, because it is bigger, more heavy and much larger. Its grind is also thicker. The Odin performs very well for a knife of this size (8" blade) : it chops and cuts very well because its grind quality. it is well balanced and it is easy to use. One criticize : though comfortable, the handle is round and you have sometimes the feeling it is slipping;

This does not happen with the Busse, you can handle it firmly but it is not comfortable. The Busse is so big and so heavy that you need a bit of skill to use efficiently.

For a hike, I take the Odin : it can stands anything and it is a versatile knife; the Busse is designed for heavy work, i think it will never let you down. its quality (huge, heavy, thick) is also its flaw (heavy, need muscle to use efficiently).

[lafayette]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=iSnIpg3Qb7M

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=OHrCmQVGsUU

Here are the videos.

Abouot the photos : as you can, i can shave my harm's hair. I did that after the test of course, and the knife is not brand new.
I made this test just to show how the ODIN is a good knife.

[lafayette]

oups, sorry about the misspellings : I was talking about my arm's hair...

[sharpshooter996]

Thanks for the video's. Looks like a nice knife you got their. I've been looking at the TK-4 folder. looks like a nice blade also.

[eatingmuchface]

wow!
thanks for the vids!
more people should post videos... I'd take some, but they'd be pretty crappy so...
yeah.
:D

the odin looks like a great knife.

I wish Busse would make more knives/ every knife come in CE. it'd be freaking awesome... a CE fbm or ffbm would be freaking amazing.
or you could send it to ban, I hear the difference is so dramatic that a banned fbm will outchop a standard ffbm.
!!!
thats crazy if it's true. :D

[lafayette]

thanks for your comments guys.
yes, you are right.
I wish I could buy a smaller BUSSE (7 or 8"), or buy a former battle mistress, which looks a bit lighter. Anyway, I will not sell my FFBM...
I know the vids are not great quality but I had only a camera and no tripod....My idea was just to show how "fast" is the ODIN and how "brute" is the FFBM.

[eatingmuchface]

you did a great job of displaying that.
:D
good job.

[Madnumforce]

The Odin looks really nice... Sad for the "too sample" handle, a bit more ergonomic (and in the nordic tradition of saami's puukos and leukus for exemple) it would have given a more secure and positive grip. But seems to be a very good blade. In my opinion, it would be a bit sad to destroy such a piece of work that is not intended for too hard abuse as a Busse can stand, for exemple, it's not the same philosophy.

[Thecarotidpulse]

Wow Lafayette.. that was excellent- it gives a lot of info thanks for the great quality pics and videos.


OK well I'm affraid that this information confirms my some of my theories - with the disclaimer that i've not yet had the chance to handle either of these blades.

What I saw was a bit of the relationship between an arrowhead and a bullet. Both ranged weapons shot at a bucket of sand will produce the arrow going through and the bullet completely caving in the bucket, but still being in the sand.

I saw that the Odin, a considerably smaller and lighter blade as Lafayette pointed out, took deeper, more efficient and cleaner bites of the wood.
The Busse tended to crush through the wood as much as chop it...

Lafayette said that the Busse was the more efficient chopper because of it's increased size, well what happens when you compare the Busse with a knife of it's own size (the Thor) and increased cutting performance as seen in the Odin?

Some predict that the Busse would outperform the FK because it's designed for heavyer work: these are my doubts.

It is known that FK has a superior grind to it's blades, so outpeforms the Busse on the peeling and cutting tests hands down.
thinner tip profile = more penetration on tip tests for FK
For one thing they have about the same RC hardness, INFI and VG10. (let alone 3G powdered steel with HRC of 62) so on tests vs concrete or metal they should perform about the same BUT, because of the laminated construction of the FK a lot of the impact vibrations that would weaken the steel would be absorbed by a) the fact that is has a much despised leather handle - forces go through the tang into the leather
b) the softer steel on the sides would theoretically act as cushionning.

Same principle applies with the hammer.

the A1's killer during the weight test was the fracturing of one of the laminations. A crack must have appeared that spread to the rest of the knife - which as one Engeneer I know that does the experimental tanks for the Canadian Army pointed out "the danger in these blades is delamination"

Whatever holds the laminates together needs to have a little give so that the laminates can flex compared to the harder core- that's what gives those blades their outstanding strength (according to my research)


I have doubts that VG10 could outperform INFI, but i think that Laminated VG 10 would have a fighting chance....

Ok this was all speculation but hey, I have neither so Lafayette what do you think? Could the larger Thor give Busse a run for it's money?

[lafayette]

Madnumforce : yes, the handle is tricky, I would not work with this knife without a lanyard.

The carotidpulse : well, I think the Busse is stronger because its design is "rougher". But about cutting abilities, I agree with you : I think the thor will probably outperform the Busse, its grind being thinner. And I think it will give Noss a hard time : it won't break easily.
Noss's A1 video gave me the same feeling : it is very hard to break a laminated blade, and it breaks differently from other blades. But the Fallkniven Northern series' tip is still much thinner, with a "slim" profile. But this tip allows me more accurate jobs and it would work fine in hunting tasks for example (though I never used this knife for such a task), which is not the case with the Busse (in my opinion). By the way, the tip is thiker and designed differently with the A1 and A2 (the grind is a bit thicker too). And those knives don't cut as well as the Northern series.
Another quality of the laminated VG10 : it is very easy to sharpen, I am talking about a razor sharpening. The Busse is not especially difficult to sharpen, but it is not easy to get it as sharp as a razor (Ok, I agree,it is not very usefull to get such a knife as sharp as a razor...)

[eatingmuchface]

wait... carotidpulse: you think just because they're the same hardness they'd do about the same on the metal and concrete tests?
I would think the fallkniven would chip out first. (although that chipping normally tunrs into denting)
The busse was one that did the best on the concrete and steel so I think it would ourperform the fallkiven in that respect. RC hardness means next to nothing.
:D

but yeah I would think the fallkniven to be a better "cutter" although I hope busse comes out with a CE fbm.
:D

[lafayette]

well, as long as someone feels good with his knife, whatever it is ....And we are talking about two good quality knives here, which have more or less the same value.

[Madnumforce]

Damn, i just realized the CS San Mai Trail Master is in every aspect similar to the FK Thor! Almost same length (around 10in blade), same thickness, same shape, same convex grind, same laminated construction, even same steels (i have the CS DVD, and there Lynn Thompson himself say that the "exterior" steel is 420J )! Only the handle material and price is different, first thing explaining the second. I'm curious to know if anyone of you know the year of introduction on the market of each of these knives :roll: . But there a comparing challenge would be interesting: 3 or 4 4x4 to go trough for each knife in the fewest time possible, then a batonning contest (spliting in 4 a 4x4 ten times, for exemple), and the the final test of the hole in a 2x4 with the tip. No destruction, just a competition to find out, in "normalised" conditions, which brand is most legitimate of it's claims. What do you think of it?

[lafayette]

I used to have a trailmaster (carbon V). it was a great knife, I used it a lot, it cut like hell, easy to sharpen and very strong. I did not like the handle that much and I sold it. And I prefer a 8" blade (easier to carry, more versatile), that's why I bought the Odin, not the Thor.
In my memory, the CS' tip is thicker and it performs very well, at least as well as a Fallknivzen (i only know the A2 and the Odin).
I am sure the trailmaster came even before the brand fallkniven was created.

[sharpshooter996]

Madnumforce that sounds like an excellent test. may be one can throw that question to Noss
I must say the Carbon version or the Trail Master is much much cheaper. Selling for around $70-$80. Thants pretty cheap i think for what you are getting.
Check this review out-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOz_mUISaY4

[sharpshooter996]

Like this review, you can do a youtube search under nutnfancy. I have watched most of his videos, and think they are pretty good. there are a couple of knives i might want to buy after seeing them. He seems to know what he is talking about and the reviews i think are pretty informative and cool. enjoy

[lafayette]

I wounder if it is a not a CS trailmaster made out SK5 and not carbon V. I heard CS does not use carbon V anymore and that the new trailmaster is not as good as the former one.

[sharpshooter996]

lafayette Cold Steel ran out of their supply or Carbon V steel about 2 years ago. They have since replaced it with SK-5 Carbon. I sure dont believe it is any less quality. If anything was going to make or break either of these steel's it would be the heat treat process. I own a couple of knives in Carbon V and they are very good. I also own a SK-5 carbon knife. It also is proving to be very good. It has been under some hard use and so far i can not see any difference between the 2. If you were interested in buying a new knife in SK-5 i would not hesitate.

[lafayette]

Thnaks for the piece of advice

[sharpshooter996]

Not a problem ;)

[Thecarotidpulse]

This is what Peter (the owner of Fallkniven knives) said about the Northern Lights series (from a post by him in the Fallkniven forum on Knife forums- one I like A LOT better than Bladeforums)


Personally I don't need much more arguments but the environment does

I haven't used bowies much more than since Crocodile Dundee was popular more than ten years ago. I bought a Cold Steel Trail Master Bowie in Carbon V and used that knife for many years. Seven years ago I made a bowie in ATS34 which I carried around much. A few years ago I made a similar in VG10 and found even that very good.

Maybe the steel isn't the most important matter when we start talking about bowies - since we use this kind of knife extremely heavy, the design and comfort should mean much more.

What's special with a bowie is that you can do just everything with that knife! I spend much time in testing knives in the woods and of course various sizes will hang on my belt from time to another. Since I carry just two knives, a simple folder for small works as cleaning small games, and a large knife, for making a fire and fix my meal, I often feel that a regular sized sheath knife is too short.

In the Scandinavian countries, we have at least two kinds of chopping tools for solving the needs - we bring a saw and a good axe. This is truely the most common way, the most rational way and the cost for these tools are fractions of the cost for a good bowie. The Lappish people, a minority people around the Polar Circle in Norway, Sweden, Finland, usually prefer a "lapphuggare" which is a kind of short machete with a blade thickness of around 3-4 mm or around 0.12" - 0.15".

But why go the easy, cheap, rational way?

There are of course advantages for the bowie that outperform the saw and the axe, mostly since it's more versatile.

As I understand, you have to like the shape of a bowie, the way it works, its heavyness, the feeling it brings when you handle it. Myself I feel very comfortable and safe when I carry a reliable, well tested bowie. I feel that I can meet any difficulties with that knife on my side.

So, maybe it's a matter of feelings.

Take care

Peter Hjortberger, Fallkniven AB

[lafayette]

well, I think there is nothing to add. Everything is said

[lafayette]

Hello to everyone, I am i hollydays and where i am, it is hard to find a computer.
I use almost everyday my gransfor axe and my fallkniven and those two are enough for most of the cutting work I have to do.
My preference really goes to fallkniven (I promise, I make no advertisement...)

[Thecarotidpulse]

Merci Lafayette!

Bonnes Vacances! Prends bcp de photos pour nous!


Je suis serieux.. .on veut des photos. Et un recit d'ou tu es alle...

[out5yder]

has anyone ever noticed how simliar this knife is to the CS trailmaster?
I would think it would be better to compare it to that if noss testes one.
:D

Of course!
I can't tell you the source of information, because I don't remember, but I have red on the forums that people from Fallkniven have their knife factory relatively recent up. They are at first knife users. And many years they had used knives from other providers when they hadn't their own line of production. One of their favorite brands was Cold Steel. What I can deduce is when they started to make up their own knives, they have inspired from what they already used - the knives that they liked most (considered the best at that time) and then started to modify those designs in order to improve them where they felt there can be done some improvements.

You can notice many similarities between the knives from Fallkniven and those from Cold Steel. These are only what I have noticed until now:
Fallkniven A1 very similar to Cold Steel SRK (this is remarked by Noss too)
Fallkniven NL 2 very similar to Cold Steel Recon Scout
Fallkniven NL 1 very similar to Cold Steel Trail Master
Fallkniven H1 and PHK present some similarities with Cold Steel Pendleton Hunter and with the blade shape of the Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter.

[lafayette]

well, maybe you are right. But we also have to admit that those shapes are very common for bowie knives.