Fallkniven F1, H1, and H1 3g: which one to chose? [Archive]

View Full Version : Fallkniven F1, H1, and H1 3g: which one to chose?

Madnumforce

08-14-2008, 06:57 PM

culpeper

08-14-2008, 11:07 PM

F1 = I think the one with the wood grain handle kicks ass. The others are typical tactical look. Depends on what you need.

Thecarotidpulse

08-14-2008, 11:50 PM

The title says it all. I would like to have a real good, strong, reliable knife in this size, so to be caried as well in the city (maybe make a neck sheath) than in the wild. Considering all the good things i've read about FK, and the realtively acceptable price for the quality, i thing i will go for it (though if you have other suggestion, i listen to your experience). But a question left: H1 or F1? I like the look of both, one more classical, the other more traditionnal (and gosh i like it), but as the H1 is undubtly stronger (thicker blade, and bigger cross-section, as the grind is only half the blade wide), the F1 might be cutting better (blade thiner, flat, full grind) and does have a finger guard. I would like to have your opinion about it, especially owners of these knives.

The basic F1 and H1 are laminated VG10, but it seems there is another version of the H1 with a 3G blade... have anyone tested it? It certainly makes the edge more brittle, is it then a good choice for such a kind of knife? Do the the performance increase justify the price increase?

Madnum, I don't own one yet (though it cometh soon!!!) but I believe that I am qualified to answer your question because I have done A LOT of research on Fallkniven and their blades. And by a lot I mean steel history and composition right down to the manufacturer, company specs and about 40 pages of Fallkniven forum informations opinions and pictures over 2 forums.

This part of my post pretty much summs up my research with regards to design:

You should know that FK started out as a knife distributor company in Sweeden, and eventually Peter H (i can never remember how his last name is spelt) decided that the best way that he could give his clients the best knife they could ever own was by manufacturing them to his own specs.

Many many years of research followed, on different designs (Peter is a traditionnallist =you'll never see serrations on an FK) and different steels. I won't bug you about the first stainless steel he used, but then he discovered VG10. More on that later.

Piqued by his ideas, the Swedes Air force sent him some specs, and bouncing abck and forth (8 years later I think) they came up with the F1 which as you know is the Sweedish air force's survival knife.

Now, there are multiple design aspects to consider in the F1 but you have to remember who it was designed for. You'll find that compared to most other Fk knives the F1 has a slimmer handle, and more pronounced finger guard. The slim profile was so that it could fit in the cargo pockets of an Airman's jumpsuit. (quote from Peter)

Same thing with the technical length etc, which also proved to be a balanced design for solidity.

What they essentially came up with design wise was a knife that a) could fit on the user at all times, not be TOO heavy so as to be on the user when needed
b) had a "non agressive" appearance, so that captured airmen wouldn't have their knives confiscated as weapons.

A little story on this second point (that I picked up- told very approximatively)

This guy was opening a sports club of some sort, and at the party they invited their local constable for a piece of cake and a tour of the facilities. Some way of getting local police endorsement.
Now you should know that in this area knives the size of the F1 were regulated, and the owned belatedly realised that he had his F1 on him.

In a smooth motion he put the F1 beside the cake that was being served, and used it to cut the policeman a slice. The cop even cut himself a second using the knife, remarking upon it's sharpness- no thought of bagging this knife as a weapon.

You mentionned that you thought the H1 would be more solid than the F1 because of its increased thickness and thicker cross section as the edge bevel runs only half the blade rather than the whole blade (as in the F1)

Although it's true, the edge is thicker on an H1 (and serves a purpose as I'll say later) you also have to consider that when it comes to cutting, the angle coming in from the edge to the rest of the blade is a smooth gracefull arc. Theoretically that makes for less resistance to the knife when splitting, cutting etc, and less resistance means less stress on the knife = making it just as strong.

Why the thicker edge on the H1? Well let's look at how these knives are marketed:

- F1, the "little big knife", the "general purpose all rounder" good for bushcraft and kitchen work.

- H1, "the perfect hunting blade"

Fallkniven has put a lot of effort into their R&D so I think it's fair to believe their design intentions when putting the knife together.

When you look at the H1, it has a very sharp tip for maximum game penetration. IF you can get under the skin cleanly, there is less chance of fur and crap getting under the skin.
Then you see the true design difference in the FK H1: it's smoother, continually curved edge from tang to tip.
This is rarer in knives, compared to straight edged models like the F1, or knives from most other manufacturers. Nowhere on the edge of an H1 is straight.

What does this do? improved cutting geometry. When you cut flesh, your blade continually digs in deeper with the slicing action rather than just a straight slice which tends to shear the meat and do 2 things: 1) shearing it makes those lines that culinary schools will fail you for 2) the fact that you've sliced but now the tissue is being pulled, means it's pulling on your edge, means your edge will last slightly less.

This only applies when cutting tissue, as it's very grippy and offers a lot of continuous resistance. The H1's curved geometry is said to be "perfectly accpetable" when confronted with most bushcraft tasks, and is actually said to be slightly superior for feathersticks.

Other design notes on the H1: the tip is technically smaller than on the F1 so theoretically the F1 would be superior in stabbing other than flesh - I don't think you'll see this operationally though because of the strength of the steel.

And finally since the H1 is made for skinning and field dressing game (338 stalker are you reading?) it has much less of a finger guard, allowing you to choke up on the blade without needing a choil, or without having to go without the grip that the Thermorun handle gives.

So in summary: the design for the H1 makes it a perfect hunting knife which is also great for other bushcraft tasks.

The designs for the F1 make it a very unobtrusive knife *that is convenient for city wear* which performs like a knife very much out of it's size class because of it's versatility and cutting performance.

Oh one more thing. You spoke earlier about a flat blade.... This is very important: No fallkniven blade comes from the factory with anything else than a convex edge.

There have been reports of a very slight (less than 1 mm) secondary edge bevel because of some of the sharpening machinery, but this is lost at the first sharpening by the user.

Now, I don't have time to go into benefits/disadvantages of a convex grind, also because it's not pertinent to your question. You asked between 3 models, and all 3 have the same edge geometry.

This is what I wanted to mention: the best 2 ways to sharpen a convex edge (unless you're Richard J and have some crazy sharpening machine) is Free hand with a Diamond stone, or with the Sandpaper and Mousepad technique.

Firm abrasive surfaces create a V bevel, also called Sabre or Flat grind. Soft abrasive surfaces mould to the metal being abrased, allowing the metal to roll to an edge = a convex edge.

Differences betwen the F1 and the H1: if you're starting out in convex edge sharpening the F1 is easier to work with than the H1. With the F1 all you ahve to do is put the side of the knife straight down on the paper, raise the spine just a little, and pull.
With the H1 you have to make sure that you get the edge bevel.

I'm going to split this post into 2 and continue in my second post about the lamination characteristics etc.

Thecarotidpulse

08-15-2008, 12:15 AM

So far i"ve talked about design differences and performance differences.

Now a quick note about the steel and steel layout, which will allow me to broach the subject of 3G steel.

FK blades are made in Japan. my advice is to get over it.

A lot of companies outsource their work to Asia for cheap labour. Fallkniven is not one of these. The knifemakers in Japan are one of the older houses (first of all) and make good knives.
Secondly VG10 was introduced to the american market by Spyderco, and then taken up by FK. (at same time according to some)
The other reason why their knives are made in Japan? Because local legislation makes it illegal to export it in any other form than knife.

Fallkniven's (and Spyderco's) first blades were made out of solid VG10. It is a steel that offers VERY HIGH corrosion resistance, but is also very hard - giving it good edge retention.
Normally a very hard knife is brittle, they managed to get the Heat treat right on their blades so that this wasn't as much of a concen.
But it still was.

So Fallkniven was one of the starting companies that introduces a laminate system.
VG10 in the middle, sandwiched between 420 J2 Stainless Steel. Don't confuse it with regular 420 though... it's got A LOT of steroids and will hold up. They didn't pick me because it was cheap (Not).

What this does is that you ahve this very hard blade that is cushionned on either side with this softer more flexible steel. The combo of steels give each other their characteristics = bonus!

They found that the laminates had 20% more lateral resistance than the solid VG10. And that's quite a lot considering the bend forces necessary.

So we talked about how hard it is to get VG10, then you asked about the H1 in 3G.

First off I can tell you that there is technically NO SUCH THING as 3 G steel.

It's a word game that Peter came up with to reflect the composition of the blade:

VG2 - SGPS - VG2

Or the 3 Gs...

The 3 G design is basically the lam VG10 on steroids. The sides are stronger, but what really makes the difference is the SGPS.
A quick word on that: Super Gold Powdered Steel, is one of the hardest most expensive steels to work with. It involves heating and moulding into the form into a hyper cold chamber.... anyway I have more to learn on that.
What you'll find practically is that the same sort of knife strength as the Lam VG10 models, but 50% more cutting resistance.

Is it more difficult to sharpen? No, because FK recommends the use of a diamondstone (for free hand technique) and diamonds are a lot harder than any of these metals. You are wasting your time if you are trying to freehand sharpen a VG10 blade with anythingother than diamonds anyway - it's too hard.
I don't have any data on wether it's harder to sharpen with the sandpaper technique.

I have heard on the downside that VG2 is not very scratch resistant.

Is it worth the extra money? Well... as much as I'd like one- the VG10 ones work a hell of a lot better than most other products on the market, and it's been described that for a user that uses his knife constantly, like a butcher or a hardcore hunter, then yes it makes a difference, but to someone that will use his knife "normally" it would be like sharpening your blade every month or every month and a half. (sharpening not honing)

IN summary, i've talked about the design differences, how the F1 is more suited to EDC in the woods or the city, and the H1 is the perfect hunting blade...

I've talked about how the H1 isn't stronger than the F1 because of it's geometry and how the concept of these laminations work.

I've talked about the different steels involved, and how SGPS is different than VG10

the only thing I want to mention now: about the finish of the blade. I have seen many users be rather annoyed with the black finish that the blade comes with. FK responds by saying that it's a tactical use thing, and that it's mission specific... Whatever - it's not the most durable finish. Also it's not really necessary... .because the blade is stainless! I mean in civilian life we don't care about reflections off our blades....

A word on corrosion resistance, the F1 and S1 models have been used as saltwater diving knives- with never any spotting.

So when you pick your knife, I'd avoid the black coating because a) it will look better b) it's better for food preparation and guess what? your bushcraft knife is now so sharp you can use it for grub.

Also I'd pick the Thermorun handle over the micarta (btw the H1 comes with a differnt handle, not much difference). The thermorun means that if you do use it in kitchen prep you don't have to worry about cleaning out the wood, and in between the screws etc.
It is said that on some models there is a hair wide space right at the beginning of the tang between the blade and the Thermorun handle. A drop of expoxy glue and you now have a knife that requires only a wipe of the blade.

Other advantage of the Thermorun model vs Micarta: the exposed butt of the tang is designed to be hit with a hammer or a rock (makes Noss happy) Because you're hitting only the tang and not the tang and the handle you avoid risk of damaging the handle material.

Ok well that's all for now, let me know if this was helpfull to you!

(P.s start with the F1, it's also their best selling introductory knife)

Thecarotidpulse

08-15-2008, 12:54 AM

http://www.knifeforums.com/uploads/1218405413-H1_and_F1_1_.JPG

http://www.knifeforums.com/uploads/1218405530-H1_on_the_left_1_.JPG

H1 is on the left on that pic

IMPORTANT: these are NOT My pictures, they are from a post from Knifeforums.Com and are the property of the person that took them ^^ i am using them for academic purposes and derive no profit from them other than to amaze your pupils

sharpshooter996

08-15-2008, 01:21 AM

Hey Pulse man. Thanks for all the info, you rock :rockon: I hope you know it is going to be your fault when I buy a Fallkniven. Should I say. . .. thank you :D

Madnumforce

08-15-2008, 04:49 AM

Thanks Carotideplus! I guess i would never have amassed as much knowledges about these knives! So, you're right, i'll just trust Fallkniven and their experience in using and designing knives, and buy the one they put together for the kind of use i'm asking. After all, Fallkniven is a good brand not only cause they make good knives, but also cause know how to design a strong a fonctionnal knife for a certain purpose. But i didn't knew the F1 had a convex grind!

Damn... i recently missed an auction on eBay... i could have my F1 for about 105$ shipped to France... Now i'll just be looking for auctions and sales on kniveforums and bladeforum...

Thanks for the advice, really.

Swed

08-17-2008, 05:37 AM

You should know that FK started out as a knife distributor company in Sweeden, and eventually Peter H (i can never remember how his last name is spelt)

Peters last name is, Hjortberger.
In addition to your über cool post, there is additional info at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A4llkniven

culpeper

08-17-2008, 12:54 PM

Damn, that is was good couple of posts.

Thecarotidpulse

08-17-2008, 10:08 PM

Culpeper: thanks man, coming from you I appreciate it =D

Swed: (lines up the fireworks) :rockon::rockon::rockon: WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!:rockon::rockon:

I'm glad this topic of discussion managed to pull you out of reading and into posting =D

About the wikipedia article... I actually didn't find it too usefull the first time I saw it... other than the links which are good.

Do I know you from KF or somewhere of the sort?

Anyway welcome and thanks for the thumbs up! :thumb:

Swed

08-18-2008, 07:22 AM

ftw13lurch

01-10-2010, 10:39 PM

Hi Geezahs,

Can only state from limited personal experience that the F1 3G's one helluva blade to compete with : definite edge retention above VG10 - hardly perceptible dulling after butchering 2 deer + a variety of other tasks.
I also have a FK U1 - same 3G steel - which has more than been put to the test with similarly impressive results.

Hope that's of some help

Marvin8

04-26-2010, 02:39 AM

So, has it been determined that the "3G" edge can be sharpened then stropped with the sandpaper/mousepad technique? Additionally, would you say that the 3G version of the F1 is worth $75 more than the regular VG10 version if you had the choice between the two? I have a solid VG-10 A1 that I might sell in order to get the F1. Thanks for an extremely informative couple of posts, Carotid!

Btw, you mentioned the 3G version having "50% more cutting resistance". Did you mean 50% LESS cutting resistance to slicing thru something?
I'll be curious to see if there's a chipping issue when I get either version....