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View Full Version : Use of a knife in a survival/bushcraft situation


Thecarotidpulse
10-07-2008, 11:08 PM
OK well, after debates on many forums I want to hear what you guys have to say about it.

Millions of people around the world go camping each year. This increased enjoyment of our original habitats is driven by sport, hunting, and a host of recreationnal motivations rendered feasible by advances in equipment that cut the cost of an expedition to something negligeable. A much lesser percentage of the population are placed in a survival type situation - by accident or professionnal haphzards.
What place does the knife hold in the camping tool arsenal? Optimal survival situation, or camping.
In this (essay) we will try to consider what geographical, political and social constraints have driven the typical knife choice across the globe.


In Europe it seems that the main bushcraft knife is a shorter blade.

The UK necessarily using folding blades (as per legal constraints prohibiting certain types of lengths of knife) or 3-4 in fixed blades advertised by 3 out of 4 survival experts. It seems that for this corner of Europe, knife use is dictated more by the experiences abroad of the local survival experts. We don't have much information on the knife use for camping within Britain and would enjoin our UK members to supplement this.

Scandinavians using Mora knives, they are not used to folders as much. The Mora knife suits their needs, and who has ever seen a 10 in Mora? Luxury models include Helle and other Puukkos. Notice "scandinavian grind" = a thin bevel leading directly to the edge. making a much better cutting tool than one with a secondary edge bevel. However the thinness of these grinds result in less edge retention, calling for ever harder carbon and now super stainless steels to back them up.
And as always, with hardness comes fragility.
It is strange that the original Nessmuk philosophy, from the United states, should find it's most ardent partisans in Northern Europe and Scandinavia: it seems that as with Nessy the mainbushcraft blade is one used to design and manufacture tools to supplement the fragility and preciousness of the edge.

And by this I mean carving wedges for splitting, sharp sticks for defence as well as any sort of digging, and whittling finer tools.

Chopping however is where the need comes in for the known Nessmuk trio- as this population is seen to produce very fine axes and hatchets, which are carried onto the field for shelter preparation in wooded areas.

And finally a very fine folding blade is carried, for meal consumption and preparation as well as ultra fine work/admiration.

So far we've looked at the Scandinavian tendancy toward finer edges, this is also ratified by their wood flora: softer woods or very thin hardwoods. The tools simply chew them up.


In France - no data except to notice the ancient culture of knives either evolved from a Farming need or very fine combat oriented stylettos.
I suppose, why go camping when there is good food and wine to be had at home with a good chair to sit on, to better enjoy them? (and I am allowed to say this as I am French myself)


Now let us temporarily skip across the Atlantic Ocean to establish the main dichotomy that this post tries to establish.

North America. Or as this is too diverse let us say: northern United States and southern to low northern Canada.
The woods are varied from coast to coast, but there are always softwoods and always hardwoods. Of course the proportion of these vary, however the size and might tend to be always greater than their European counterparts.

Here you see a different sort of knife use, where knives are often used in a weaponized society (points finger at USA) as defensive or offensive implements.
If we concentrate on the field use of the knives we see an interesting development. Bigger and heavier blades, steeper grinds and tougher steels. Sometimes less hard steels...

The large knife is used almost exclusively, replacing even the axe at times which is deemed too heavy to carry. Are North Americans less fit than Northern Europeans? Why do they carry axes and we don't? Well my answer to this is: first off some of us do, this essay reflecting on conjectures, speculations and wanton generalizations. Secondly, our trees are just too freaking big! Hand axes won't do much and aren't versatile enough to be worth the bother of bringing...

The large heavy knife when used in conjunction with the saw fills all the needs of the North American user - from felling trees to preparation of fagots for burning.

It is often used as a machete on steroids.



****************************



Here I interrupt my post to allow for discussion: I have raised a couple of issues I would absolutely love to hear back on.

For instance:

The applications of knives in camping on UK soil. (in such a seemingly controlled society, what would you need to go camping?)

Same for France, and any other European country that contrasts from the argument of the first paragraph.

To all our users: what do you take with you when camping? what do you use it for? what tools do you find yourself needing and do you bring them or make them onsite?

What reactions to what I have presented?

I await responses with baited breath, after we get some results I'll repost this with some added paragraphs that will reflect the opinion/information of the group.

Please look forward to my next Sticky in this forum for pictures =)

Gman1128
10-08-2008, 06:13 PM
Excellent post, very true!

When I go camping I will usually take a large chopping knife, usually my trailmaster. I used to take a small $7 Wal-Mart hatchet but the trailmaster way out chops it. Occasionally I take a medium sized fixed blade such as a Buck 119. I will always take a medium to large size folder. This is my Gerber Evo or my Benchmade Griptillian. When my family goes car camping I will have a large axe as well.

I mainly use the large fixed blade and the folder. Where I used to live, in California, a large chopper or axe was necessary to gather fire wood. Wood on the ground was just not usually large enough to sustain the big fire that feels so nice on those cold winter campouts. However in Alabama where I live now, the forest near my house has so much large fallen wood that you don’t really need to chop anything down. The main use for a large knife is to baton wood to get smaller pieces to start fires.

As for what I find useful, I really don’t care for smaller fixed blades. If I carry a fixed blade it will usually have at least a 5 or 6 inch blade length. I have found that a folder can carry out all the uses of a small fixed blade as well as being more portable, lighter, more sheeple friendly/legal, and safer (a friend of mine knew a guy that was out hunting and fell and his knife went through the leather sheath and into his leg). I find a large fixed blade much more useful. It gives you the chopping power of a small axe and, while it lacks in fine work, it (my trailmaster at least) is still capable of sharpening a stick into a tent peg, making shavings for a fire, and most other camp chores. I can also use the spine to hammer that tent peg (or anything else) into the ground. Try that with a Mora! :D That is why I carry a large fixed blade despite what many survival exports recommend. No offense meant to those who favor smaller bushcraft knives, they're just not really my thing

Thecarotidpulse
10-08-2008, 06:58 PM
Great reply Gman thanks!

kiah
10-08-2008, 07:16 PM
and who has ever seen a 10 in Mora?


Not quite 10", but the blades on these are around 9".


http://www.ragweedforge.com/749.jpg

http://www.ragweedforge.com/c-223.jpg

Macgregor
10-08-2008, 07:39 PM
I like a nice balanced blade; something that chops and more importantly limbs good(most wood you have to chop in the woods isn't all that thick 1-3'), durable, cuts extremly well, engeneered and designed well, easy to sharpen, and easy to carry.
I think I have found that knife in the busse comp edge hell razor; its infi blade is durable and easy to sharpen, its full convex edge cuts really well even when dull, it packs an amazing amount of chopping power for its size, the grooves on the spine and choil allows you to choke up and preform precise cuts when skinning, and the blade is rather light and comfortable to carry in the spec-ops basic sheath.

Pictures when I get a new camera battery.

Koa
11-28-2008, 10:09 PM
I think a large knife can have the capacity to chop better than an axe (at least in my hands) and still be useful for more delicate cutting chores. I go back and forth between a 4 inch blade with a saw and a 4 inch blade with a larger 7-9 inch blade. I can really whip through a smaller tree quickly with a large sharp blade and they tend to weight less and be easier to carry.

As far as the place a knife holds in a survival situation I think it is the most important tool you can have second only to KNOWLEDGE. With a good knife you can make everything you need to live indefinitely.

Izan
12-04-2008, 03:31 PM
I will take a chopper, and a 3-5" knife, that's it. I like to rely on a small ammount of tools. I am getting my NMSFNO in the mail soon and would like to rely on that and my GW for all of my bushcraft needs.

smorgan345
12-10-2008, 01:22 AM
I take a Leathermans Tool, a 6" fixed blade, and a 21" bow saw. I can detach the blade from the bow saw to fit into my backpack. It's lighter than an axe and more effective at getting through much larger wood. I feel like I use the leathermans the most truthfully. I do the detail stuff like figure 4 deadfalls and t-bar snares with the blade on the leatherman, gut fish, clean small game. The fixed blade I use to split wood, de-limb stuff, large carving jobs. Psychologically the 6" gives me a sense of security even if it is a false one. It gets pretty spooky at night on survival trips!

cgeyer
12-10-2008, 12:52 PM
I usually take one 5-6" (either a Busse Basic 5 or a Busse ASH-1), a 3-4 (Busse OJ Warden or Meaner Street) and an SAK or two. Car camping I'll also have a Swamp Rat Crash Ax. I use the larger blades to break down large pieces of wood, the smaller fixed for general camp chores, and the SAK's for their more specialized tools.

The Crash Ax is just for fun! Although it did do a number on a plum tree I lost in a storm this year, I don't carry it much.

winbag338
09-28-2009, 09:48 PM
A survival knife" the one thats on you when you first realize your screwed" is far too valuable a tool to risk dulling, loosing, or breaking. A true adept will only use his knife when it becomes a matter of " life or death", and then only maybe. Your surroundings are to be escaped not mastered. Vanity, romantics and ego kills.

kurodrago
10-24-2009, 08:31 AM
I'd like to think that I have on me a seven inches knife with a little weight
on it!
I know what cold and hot climate can affect my boby for experience!
If you can't zip up your pants because it's too cold....for sure you can't use you knife.
In survival situation
Any knife will be okay if is around!
The enviornment I'm in will concern me more than have a KNIFE on me!

jankerson
10-24-2009, 08:47 AM
For me something around 6" to 8" is fine for general camp chores, but I do like a big Chopper like my Busse CGFBM as it does make a big difference when you have to process a lot of wood for a fire, clearing etc. :)

trib trekker
11-18-2009, 02:06 PM
A survival knife" the one that's on you when you first realize your screwed" is far too valuable a tool to risk dulling, loosing, or breaking. A true adept will only use his knife when it becomes a matter of " life or death", and then only maybe. Your surroundings are to be escaped not mastered. Vanity, romantics and ego kills.

In my opinion, that's the great benefit for us in Noss' work! I don't ever want to find myself in a situation where the knife I have can't be trusted to endure whatever extreme circumstance that I need it to. I want my choice to be a knife that will have my complete confidence in being able to withstand whatever I need it to even if beyond the scope of what a knife should be expected to do. If I need to jam it into a crevasse to step on to climb out of danger, Leatherman and Gerber are out. If I need to dig somebody out of wreckage and don't have a crow bar, by Busse will rise to the occasion with a smile. If I wake up with a bear in my tent, he's gonna be a pug when my trusty blade hits its mark. I don't even take leisurely strolls in the woods anymore as I have all my life without a substantial blade as my companion. Oh, but I have my Leatherman, too.

smitty
10-29-2010, 09:19 PM
I have used a small axe for years, Im not old school I was taught old school by my grandfather. Since hanging around here and watching Noss and his vids, a big chopper has more functions than an axe, in my mind. Before spring hits I will have a big chopper!! You can just do more with it. My grandfather showed me an old trick years ago. You don't sit there with an axe trying to split wood, you batton with it, but you lay the wood down, you'll kill yourself trying to split it if you stand it up :)

peter72
02-20-2011, 01:25 AM
The sad truth is.In a real survival situation most people will have shit, and piss running down their leg crying their eyes out.It would be nice to think you could pull your knife out,and build this and make that.But don't count on it.