Ontario Old Hickory 10" Butcher knife hammer on wood test

[Noss]

After all the talk on blade forums about hitting a knife with a hammer in the CRK thread. I went out in the shop and repeated the test that broke both CRK blades. The old Hickory went for 1 hour with out blade breakage. It's all on video. About 95 percent of the knives I test pass this simple test easy. The old hickory is not a knife advertised as hard use or combat use but it can endure 3 lb pound hammer impacts. The notion that a knife will automatically yield because it is hit with a hammer is is not valid at least as seen in my testing. If a knife has a good amount of toughness then it should survive this test easy.

I don't think asking for a hard use survival/combat knife to survive hammer impacts on wood is much to ask.

After all of this I was still able to flex the blade and chop with the knife. The knife only took some minor denting on the spine and the riveted wood handles never came loose.

This video set is very boring but I think it makes a point. If you can sit through it ? :eek: enjoy the videos. They were made for you. :thumb:

Part 1
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Part 2
R749EYhtowY



Part 3
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Part 4
MJ-VCpAyamk



Part 5
IaqEH39lJaU



Part 6
rrYiX-OfFTQ



part 7
eGEN3NeeKes

[Koa]

Funny you bring this up. Just yesterday I was cuttting with my 6" Old Hickory (my mostest favorite kitchen knife) and wondering how tough it would be as a survival knife. Perhaps you are reading my mind Noss. For a few bucks the Ol' Hickory is hard to beat and takes a hair popping edge with almost no effort.

[Noss]

I hear Old Hickory's are popular for use in bushcraft. I haven't used them much myself. The one in the test is the only one I have but I'm going to play around with it some more.

[G. Scott H.]

Good to see the Old Hick taking a beating. :rockon: I suggested a while ago that Noss test one of these out just for grins to see how much it would take, after I saw a dude on BF who was using one as an outdoor/camp knife. Not bad so far for an $11 knife. :thumb:

What's the thickness on that blade? Around 1/8" maybe?

[Noss]

It measures at .095" thick. I bought this one after you requested it a long while back I just never go to testing it. :o

[G. Scott H.]

I knew you'd get around to it eventually. Even if you don't get to the full test till after your break, this at least shows it's a pretty tough knife. Thanks. :rockon:

[culpeper]

I just gave away a whole kitchen set of Old Hickory that we used for over a year. I loved these cheap knives. 1095 steel means no dishwasher means Mrs. Culpeper didn't like washing and drying these knives by hand. But for the money you don't need much more in the kitchen. They have been around a long time. I remember my mom had a couple for about 20 years in her kitchen!

[shmoopiebear]

Damn. And it is an $11 butcher knife.

How does it compare to the Becker BK9? I have the BK7 desert edition and was disappointed to see the Becker do so poorly in the destruction tests. Funny in that the Beckers are much sought after collectors items by survivalists now since they are not made anymore. Maybe they should seek out the Old Hickory as a bush knife instead. :rockon:

[culpeper]

Shit, they've been around for about 120 years. That's amazing.


Ontario Knife has been manufacturing "Old Hickory" kitchen knives for over 100 years - in fact since 1889. The "Old Hickory" knives have stood the test of time and proved themselves as the best carbon steel kitchen knife sold today. Each "Old Hickory" knife is made with 1095 carbon steel, fully heat treated and tempered to provide a razor sharp cutting edge which is easily sharpened when needed. The knives are fitted with an attractive hardwood handle branded "Old Hickory" and secured with brass compression rivets.

[Koa]

The more I think about this thread the more I have to laugh. :D People make a fuss about hitting a survival knife with a hammer so you bang on an Old Hickory for an hour to make a point ROTFL! Too bad they will still make excuses instead of just finding a knife that works in real life.

I hear you about the lousy edges that come on Old Hickory. The edge that came on mine wasn't even sharpened along the entire length and the parts that were had a huge burr. I mean there were actually flat parts on the blade, it wasn't purchased as a factory second but it may have been. I also had to touch up the handle with some wet/dry paper to remove the splinters. Now that this is done the knife is outstanding and feels great in the hand.

[NervusNorvus]

Thanks Noss. Just goes to show: Sometimes a little money buys alot. But other times, you get alot less than you pay for.

[Noss]

G. Scott H: I curious to see how far I can push it now. I'll get around to d-testing it
soon I hope.

culpeper: Yeah I hate doing dishes myself. All my kitchen knives are just junk anyways but they still work for kitchen use. Still I need to get some new ones I guess but I don't want to spend a fortune on then so I may get a few Old Hickory's


shmoopiebear: the Bk-9 I tested was very brittle. I think it is the only knife that broke on the concrete test. :eek: People that have the old ones swear by them but the BK-9 was to brittle for me. The New Becker Ka-bars should perform better in the tests since they are made of 1095 Cro-Van

[culpeper]

It looks like stamped steel. The blades are thin enough that it doesn't take much to get the edge razor sharp. One pass on a 10" wheel and I had a wire edge. One pass on the stropping wheel and I was done.

[Noss]

Thanks Noss. Just goes to show: Sometimes a little money buys alot. But other times, you get alot less than you pay for.

no problem. Very true statement. :thumb:

[BimotaBoy]

Ontario knives, the best bang for the buck???
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[shmoopiebear]

The 1095 is reliable, easily sharpened, and the price is right. I was eyeing the cleaver and some of those that would make good field knives. It would be interesting to do destructive tests on one to see how far it would go. Cold Steel would certainly get a run for it's money as well as Cheaper Than Dirt I bet. Great videos BTW. Damn impressive! Thank you!

[Noss]

Koa: Yeah I think shows that if a knife is made under some simple known basics a maker can turn out a good usable tough blade that won't fall apart when the user gets a little rough with it.


shmoopiebear: I'm going to take it all the way and see just what else it can do in the toughness department. So far it has shown the 3 lb hammer is no problem for it. We will see how it performs under other types of stress.

[G. Scott H.]

THe only OH knives I've had were a couple of "sticker" double edge models that I used as throwing knives a long time ago, but I believe I'll treat myself over Christmas to an Old Hickory 10" butcher, 14" butcher, and cleaver to try out for camp use, and maybe a 3.25" peeler to try out as a patch knife for my muzzleloaders. :rockon:

Can't wait to see the full test, Noss. :thumb:

[Noss]

Cool. If you get some for camp use let us know how they work. I was also looking at the OH cleaver as well. I bet it would be damn handy around the camp site and only about 20 bucks.

[culpeper]

I sat through each video. The basic 1095 stamped out steel and simple hardwood handle w/brass rivets took a hell of a lot of stress and passed with flying colors. This is the end of the controversy over hammering so-called combat knives under the same conditions. After watching this test it would be an honor to be presented with an Old Hickory Model 7-8 combat knife over a Chris Reeve Green Beret presentation knife.

If I had Photoshop I would make up a prototype Old Hickory Model 7-8 presentation knife image for the Special Forces.:thumb:

As for the seditionists that have been giving Noss holy helll and can't see the forest because of the trees....


Now after watching this test and listening to the civil commentary at the end of the final video, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fuckin' wit ya. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it with an Old Hickory Model 7-8 you're gonna say, "Noss was right."
:headbang:


Nice job, Noss. Very nice, job.:p

,,,

[G. Scott H.]

Cool. If you get some for camp use let us know how they work. .
Will do. :cool:

In the meantime, I suggest we all slip on our ponchos and rainboots for the shitstorm that's likely to arise over this test at a few other places. :D:rockon:

[will york]

Great, great demo, Noss. Thanks for that. No words needed in that debate when you can point to those videos--argument over.

[kiah]

Hardheart posted it in the CRK thread on BFC. Prepare for some "so what"s and less than witty one liners.

[culpeper]

I can't believe they are STILL posting in that thread.

[kiah]

I can't believe they are STILL posting in that thread.

It's cooled down now. Gus hit Phil and a couple others with infractions, and it seems to have calmed everyone down. Maybe if it does continue now it can actually be a discussion instead of a few slinging insults at each other. Maybe.

[shmoopiebear]

From a pragmatic and practical standpoint the tests are going to save people's lives and their money. Can't get better than that.

[Noss]

Hardheart posted it in the CRK thread on BFC. Prepare for some "so what"s and less than witty one liners.

Yeah I just saw over there that the "So What" has started. :rolleyes:


I figured that thread would have been locked at about post 150. :confused: I guess this time they decided to let people fight it out.

[shmoopiebear]

I noticed comparable knives from Cold Steel's lineup are all more expensive than the Old Hickory. They have the Finn Wolf, Long Hunter, and Western Hunter. The knives are admittedly based on the Puuko and Old Hickory designs using more modern materials. I wonder if they would be able to handle the baton tests like the Old Hickory did? Even more interesting would be how they would handle tests to destruction? It would certainly give more rep to Cold Steel if they surpassed more expensive knives in performance especially to destruction. It would be curious an experiment and would say a lot about the quality of foreign manufacturers to boot. Of course one would wonder if it would raise up that benchmark of quality across the board domestically.

[Izan]

LOL! Noss, that was awesome! The CRK fans are frickin CRYING right now, they have nothing to say, lol.

[shmoopiebear]

Is CRK still based in South Africa or is it domestic now? I am wondering if the quality has anything to do with the company's access to materials and tooling especially now with globalization.

Addendum: answered my own question. They are based in Boise, Idaho. Checked their prices and noticed they still command custom levels. The whole integral, one piece, less parts to fail concept is sound. The thing is if the quality of the materials themselves are compromised or substandard then the whole product can fail.

[Izan]

It is almost like the mere thought of a CRK blade failing is sacrilege, as most of the fanboys relate them to the US Military, and god knows people in the Military are ALL genius'.

I have several friends that I give shit to weekly for their tireless contributions in the hunt for obama bin laden, and they all have knives but most use the standard issue. Matt, a good buddy of mine actually bought a LMF II, he has not used it once and he has been in Iraq for 3 months, was there for 18 months before that.

[culpeper]

OLD HICKORY KICKING ASS FOR OVER A CENTURY!

http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/OHVEVJ.jpg

[Noss]

OLD HICKORY KICKING ASS FOR OVER A CENTURY!

http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/OHVEVJ.jpg



:D:D:thumb::rockon:

That's awesome !!! :rockon:

[me2]

I posted it here before, but next time Noss, save yourself some time an move up to an 8 lb hammer like I did on the OH boning knife. The only difference is I couldnt hold the handle, which may or may not be significant. So, one hour of hammer batoning didnt break it? Anybody besides me think that the increasing toughness/decreasing thickness has anything to do with this? I've heard some people say the 14" version has some issues with toughness. I dont know if they still do, since the threads were pretty old. Some brittle failures I think.

[will york]

Anybody besides me think that the increasing toughness/decreasing thickness has anything to do with this?

Me2,

Interesting.

Increasing toughness, sure, but what line of thinking brings you to the conclusion that decreasing blade thickness might increase impact tolerance? My first thought would be that the thinner the blade, the more concentrated the force of the blow, but conceivably, a thinner blade might dissipate energy by vibrating/flexing more, where a thicker blade would be more rigid and absorb that energy without being able to dissipate it as well.

Any facts, examples or reasoning you have to support your thinking on that would be welcome.

Thanks,
will

[culpeper]

Energy is released quicker through a thinner blade and may factor in why this knife didn't break after repeated blows for over an hour and the CRK did break quickly. The argument presented above actually is the old proven theory that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. At the instant the CRK broke it was unable to withstand the equal and opposite action to release energy. Thus, ending in catastrophic failure. The knife should have withstood the energy applied to it as advertised. Almost all knives of the same thickness pass this test with no problems. Noss's test stumbled upon a weakness in the design of the CRK knife. Whether the steel was too brittle, a flaw in the shape, and so forth is beyond the scope of the test. It broke when it shouldn't have broke. And embarrassingly for the manufacturer though that was not the tester's intent.

[will york]

Energy is released quicker through a thinner blade...

...but a thicker blade is "stronger" to begin with, meaning more able to bear a load.

I'm not arguing with you because I don't know the answer, but I wonder if you can illustrate your point with an example of how a thinner blade would withstand more impact than a thick one before breaking.

To take the question to an extreme just for illustration purposes, if you made a blade out of the same material as the Old Hickory but made it thin enough--say half the thickness or thinner, it would be crushed under the hammer blows. On the other hand, if you had a blade with a spine that was an inch across, made of the same steel as the Old Hickory, would you not expect the width/thickness of the blade to hold up better just because the broader area accepting the impact would distribute that force/energy over a wider area?

Interesting stuff--good discussion.

will

[culpeper]

...but a thicker blade is "stronger" to begin with, meaning more able to bear a load.

You're correct. I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I just couldn't find the same words you did. To elaborate we don't make naval ships out of thin steel because they release energy quicker on impact. We make them out of steel that can bear x amount of load and withstand y amount of impact. What happened to the CRK knife is a failure like a weld bend test that failed. Something wasn't done right. The Titanic probably would have survived her glance off the iceberg had her steel been of better quality more suited for the job she was intended to perform, which was to sail through iceberg waters. The failure of the CRK is probably along the same line, that is, a metallurgical failure caused by some sort of variable not suited for the job the CRK was intended to be used. What that variable may be is not the scope of the test Noss performed on it. Noss's test was a "limited-scope" test. All he needs to show is if the knife either passes or fails the test. The CRK failed the test catastrophically.

As for a thinner blade releasing energy quicker on the same type of hammering I mean the steel is plenty flexible to release energy all up and down it's length and have little effect on the hammer. The opposite, of course, is that a thicker blade should have a higher tolerance for maintaining a load and withstanding the same impact. The opposite action being the hammer will bounce. The blade shouldn't break like it was made of cinder-block.

[shmoopiebear]

Assuming it was the same wood and hammer used in both tests... perhaps the CRK was not designed to be "batoned" for cutting into and chipping or taking chunks out of the wood. Perhaps the CRK absorbed most of the impact of the hammer and gave way before the wood did. The Old Hickory may have been better suited as it is consistently thin throughout. It was allowed to "bite" deep before being able to tear chunks out of the wood. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part as I am no knife expert. It has been said to pick the right tool for the job. In comparison maybe the CRK was not made to baton or chop wood at all and the Old Hickory, even though it is not in the inherent nature of it's design, was able to step up to the task.

[me2]

I'll have to go look it up, but it has something to do with plain stress vs. plain strain. I was reading some text on stainless sheet steel the other day and noticed a chart relating thickness to toughness and the thinner the sheet, the higher the rating. This was for ferritic stainless steels of varying carbon content at different temperatures, so the ductile/brittle transition was having an effect as well, just to make things crystal clear.:headbang: For the plain stress vs. plain strain, a thread on swordforums reminded me of that, but I dont remember much. I am a materials engineer, but at the bottom of my diploma it says in tiny letters "Lifetime Achievement Award".

[culpeper]

The CRK was originally designed for hard abuse. However, I have always thought of the CRK Green Beret knife something they gave graduates of that school no different than a Ka-Bar presentation knife. But CRK takes their marketing a step further by promoting the knife as a hardworking knife under the guise it is a knife suited for combat use. The reality is is that it is a presentation knife made popular by some sort of agreement based on a meeting at Ft. Bragg. They were not granted a contract to provide knives for combat use by the SOC. SOC only approves purchaes of a serialized version of the Green Beret knife for their graduates as a perk. CRK goes a step further by selling to past graduates as well before the agreement.


Efficient - Tough - Exceptional

This knife is known to the U.S. Army Special Forces as "The Yarborough" and to everyone else as "The Green Beret Knife". It is a no-nonsense, hardworking tool, designed by renowned knife maker and designer Bill Harsey, with function and manufacturing input from Chris Reeve. Made in Boise, Idaho by Chris Reeve Knives, the Green Beret Knife is a using knife that, just like the men for whom it was designed, is efficient, tough and uncompromising.

7 inch
5.5 inch
optional aftermarket sheath
black leather
CPM S30V stainless steel
55-57 RC
KG Gun-kote
5.50" (139 mm)
full tang 0.220" (5.6 mm)
10.875" (276 mm)
11.8 oz. (335 g)
black leather

Use of Special Forces insignia does not indicate endorsement by U. S. Army Special Operations Command.


As from August 23, 2002, a serialized version of the "Yarborough" knife will be presented to each graduate of the Special Forces Qualification Course.

Efficient - Tough - Exceptional
Words that describe the men of the U.S. Army Special Forces
Words that describe the knife designed specifically for these men

Without the name "Yarborough" and non-serialized, the otherwise identical knife - The Green Beret Knife - is available from Chris Reeve Knives.

[theonew]

Interesting discussion here. I don't know what to really make of the thicker/thinner debate. But my guess is that the CRK failure is more metallurgical in nature. I think the whole idea that softer equals tougher is too simplistic. There was a chart around from crucible, I'll try to dig it up, that had the toughness for A2 peaking between 57 - 60, outside of that range toughness decreased. Anyone know the hardness on that Old Hickory?

[culpeper]

The Old Hickory is plain jane 1095 Rockwell Hardness 54-56 Rc. It's a spring steel.

[G. Scott H.]

The Old Hickory is plain jane 1095 Rockwell Hardness 54-56 Rc. It's a spring steel.
In other words, a quality old school knife. :rockon: Kinda makes you question the latest, greatest, high-tech stuff. ;)

[me2]

I really dont want to pollute this site with a lot of technical stuff, but under the reviews section of Cliff Stamp's web site there is a link to blade materials at the top. There you will find a chart relating tempering temperature to torsional toughness. Notice the drop in toughness suffered by A2 at the higher temperatures, and the trough in the middle. This chart is reference to the American Society of Metals (ASM). Also on the materials web page under A2, you will find a link to Crucible's data sheet for A2. Notice the hardness does not go below 57 until the tempering temperature goes above 1000 degrees. From the look of the chart, 1000 degrees is approaching the bottom of another trough, though we cannot be sure because the chart ends there. It seems that the tempering range used by CRK is in or near the bottom of another toughness trough. However, notice the peaks at 350 and 700 degrees. For pure cutting knives, 350 would be a good start, with hardness, according to Crucible, in the 62-63 range, and probably able to reach 64-65 with good cryo treatment. For a tough blade, the 700 degree peak seems good, with hardness at 58 according to Crucible. HOWEVER, also notice that the toughness data from Crucible is about opposite of that of ASM (assuming the reference is the correct one). Crucible shows a toughness near its peak at a 550 degree temper, and ASM shows a gully. So who do we believe? And the big question, how does this apply to the Project 1, drawn down to 55 hardness? And remeber, both could be right. Crucible has a huge lab and more metallurgists than you could shake a stick at to test all their stuff. ASM has even more than that. Different heats respond to different treatments differently, so we have a real quandry here. Also notice that Crucible uses a slightly different austenizing temperature. Another gap in knowledge is that we dont know where CRK gets its A2, and A2 from Crucible will behave slightly differently from A2 from Timken, or others. The controls on alloy content are quite tight for tool steels, so this consideration should be minimized. One more thing is the Crucible sheet uses Charpy testing and the chart uses torsional toughness testing, both of which have ASTM procedures and should give repeatable results. The lab I used to work for did its own charpy testing, and I found another lab that could do the torsional toughness testing, though its a pretty penny. Also be aware that the steel on the chart is tool steel type 420, not A2. However, type 420 and A2 are basically the same, just named under a different naming system. I have not checked this out for myself, and am taking the word of the person who wrote the notes on the charts.

No one, to my knowledge, makes A2 knives, cryo treated and tempered at 350 degrees. However, we do know that a knife tempered in what appears to be a toughness gully (I like that better than trough), according to ASM, will not withstand the beating that a knife 1/50th the price and half the thickness took for an hour. We also have 2 knives from the same company failing in the same way under similar abuse. I am making a lot of assumptions, mostly that the ASM charts are indeed from ASM, Crucible knows how to test its own stuff, and the guy who wrote A2 on the type 420 chart knows what he's talking about. The first and last points are debatable, but Crucible certainly knows what its doing.

[me2]

I think the whole idea that softer equals tougher is too simplistic.

JHC, if you keep putting it in print where everyone can read it, they'll all know. Oh, wait, nearly every metallurgical text I've read says that somewhere. Nevermind. An excellent observation and one worth keeping in mind when reading and watching destruction videos about what I consider to be over-tempered, unduly softened, highly alloyed chromium based steels, ie A2 and S30V.

[will york]

Thank you, me2. You obviously have the background for analyzing this stuff, and I for one appreciate your perspective. Actually, the conflicting data and resulting subjective assumptions about heat treatment, blade steel alloys and their properties lead me to put even more stock in Noss's approach: just beat the tar out of them until they fail and see which ones hang together longest. Of those, decide which fit your wallet, your use parameters and edge-holding needs the best, buy a couple of those, and relax.

...but what would be the fun in that?

[theonew]

I nominate me2 as the first troll here. He is clearly showing off his advanced knowledge of metallurgical science just to stir up controversy ;)

Seriously though thanks for the links and more so for your intelligent analysis and commentary. When my brain reboots in a day or two I'll check them out if only to further confuse myself :o Now I'm even more eager to see Noss's tests of Bark River's A2 @ 58 - 59 RC. Bark River regularly mentions their heat treatment protocol in their marketing and on online. Should be interesting :thumb:

[culpeper]

Thank you, me2. You obviously have the background for analyzing this stuff, and I for one appreciate your perspective. Actually, the conflicting data and resulting subjective assumptions about heat treatment, blade steel alloys and their properties lead me to put even more stock in Noss's approach: just beat the tar out of them until they fail and see which ones hang together longest. Of those, decide which fit your wallet, your use parameters and edge-holding needs the best, buy a couple of those, and relax.

...but what would be the fun in that?

Also, what are the odds that the unit Noss tests happens to be a random reject? So low that I would gander that the knife is a good one from the manufacturer or so high that the obvious failure will occur under any similar test. Thus, lowering risk that Noss's approach isn't sound. In fact, his approach is rather simple and effective. The tool being tested either passes or fails a test. The myriad of variables behind a pass or failure being secondary to the observer and the tester. Noss's intent isn't to find an answer for a pass or failure but to show which occurs. Like you mentioned, one use for these types of tests is for any reasonably knowledgeable and prudent cutlery peruser to make a decision. Another thing that lowers the testing risk is the quality control at the manufacturer, which eliminates the need for testing a random sample of a population. In fact, Noss's method of acquiring knives for testing is as random as the average consumer receiving a knife. Either sight-unseen by ordering online or picking up one in a store based on what is on-hand. Again, lowering risk that Noss's testing is flawed from some sort of scientific method approach. Noss's test are what they are intended to be and that is from the perspective of a practical approach. Consumers don't have the luxury of random sample testing when purchasing a knife.

[shmoopiebear]

No one, to my knowledge, makes A2 knives, cryo treated and tempered at 350 degrees.

This statement piqued my interest because I have a "knife" ( i.e. sword ) that was supposedly cryo treated. I bought this when Jerry Busse first started offering for sale his small sampling of semi-custom knives to the public. They were made with the stock removal method from what I understood at the time of the purchase.

I have an American Kensei that was forged with A2 ( NO - I am not going to volunteer it for destructive testing - it is worth a lot more on the secondary market intact! ) and supposedly it was cryo treated. I have no idea what the heat temper on the sword was.

For A2, Jerry's knives were pretty tough. Cliff Stamp took five years to destroy one A2 Busse knife he had in his possession. I am just wondering if there are other testimonies of abusive and destructive use of those particular line of A2 Busse knives.

So back to the original question... does anybody know at what temperature Busse heat treated their old A2 knives at? I am pretty sure his line of A2 knives were all cryo treated. Would be curious to know.

[Noss]

Looks like I missed a lot here today. I need to go back and read everything. But from just quickly scanning through it. Looks like we need to do some more testing on thinner blades of different steels and see what type of pattern emerges.

[will york]

I like Culpeper's analysis of Noss's "random sampling". The possibility that one of his test knives was a "random dud" brings up two additional points by putting the ball back in the manufacturer's court. First, the manufacturer's quality control, as you say, comes under scrutiny if the claim is made that the sample was not up to par. In short: Why WASN'T it?

If it isn't a representative sample, then Noss's testing reveals a flaw that is just as serious as a physical defect in the blade: the manufacturer's poor quality control and unreliable consistency of product. The second point is that if the manufacturer says the knife should have taken the abuse that broke it, they always have the option of sending Noss a replacement piece for a re-test.

Noss: More testing always sounds good to me. That said, wouldn't it be almost impossible to eliminate all of the variables between blades, other than thickness, that might be affecting performance? For example, Busse has made a few knives in almost identical configurations except for thickness, but that's unusual among manufacturers. Still, it would be interesting, for example, to test both the Skinny ASH1 you have (at .1875") and the Combat Grade ASH1 (at .32") to see what performance differences show up. Even between those two, the primary grind is different, being flat on the CG and convex on the Skinny, but if there were wide differences in results on some tests you might be able to draw some valid conclusions.

[Noss]

Will,
Yeah I couldn't eliminate all variables between blades. I would have to have every blade made the same way. I have always wounded about thickness vs toughness? Many of the thinner blades I have d-tested have done very well and have easily competed with the thicker ones.

shmoopiebear: I don't know. I don't know much about Jerry's older A2 blades. I have only read a few things about them.

[Izan]

Look at the abuse the CS Kukri took, actually it was the only knife Noss has ever posted a video of that, after EVERY test, was still a functional tool!

That blade is thin as hell, .125 or something like that. Now take that knife and double the thickness, I would bet $10 that it would have snapped on the body-weight test. Still, that steel is not a new age metal, and it is stamped. The CRK should have held up to the the hammer impacts despite it's blade thickness.

[will york]

Cliff Stamp took five years to destroy one A2 Busse knife he had in his possession.

Shmoopiebear: Do you happen to have a link to any of Cliff's testing of an A2 Busse? I don't seem to find any indication on his website.

Thanks!
will

[xxo]

is this the one?


http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/busse_basic.html

[will york]

is this the one?


http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/busse_basic.html


Thanks xxo, but that Basic 7 was M-INFI (modified INFI), not A2. All the Basics were made of M-INFI, just like the Basic 9 that Noss tested here awhile back.

[me2]

Culpeper, your logic seems so straight forward that I'm sure it will be completely ignored. If the knife passes, it passes, if not, then it doesnt. The variables come into play when a knife fails and someone wants to know why. To date, only the Red Scorpion has induced a modification to prevent failure in a weak point. It would be refreshing to have a company with 2 sub par performances for very expensive (to me) knives actually do something constructive with these videos and ask how to improve. Instead, they appeal to their own authority and say it did what it was supposed to do and we stand behind it. We've been doing this longer than Noss has been testing, and time equals quality. We dont get any complaints. If I paid $300+ for a knife and broke it by dropping it off a ladder or accidentally haveing a hard impact with a hammer, I wouldnt tell anyone either, or I would tell everyone. Well, we see the response that latter action gets. I mean for heavens sake, would it be that much of a stretch to switch to A8, noted for toughness, and draw it at a reasonable hardness so it has some chance of holding an edge noticably longer than 420HC? Lets face it, Noss' Old Hickory test is not a surprise w/r to it passing a test that the CRK knives couldnt. I have a convex ground puukko style (read as short machete) knife in my garage right now made from 1/16" M2 hardened to 65 HRc, and it took a 6' drop point first and a good throw point first into another piece of steel to break the tip; about 1/16" was lost. Thats 10 points harder and 1/4th as thick as the CRK knives, and I'm seriously thinking of finishing the handle, resharpening it an sending it to Noss just to prove a point. Of course, once he does break it, that's setting Noss up for a grenade like shattering of little sharp pieces of steel, so maybe not. Yes, I did break a piece of the same steel, and yes it is brittle, but I broke it with a 2lb hammer and a 1/8" punch on some end grain pine after 5 or 6 good hits. I was trying to punch a hole in it for handle scales.

Its a diminishing returns type of issue as well. I'd say any knife with a 4 sword rating or higher would have to be carfully examined to determine how to improve it without large enough design changes to make it a different knife. If the knife passes, then you look at what you can reduce and still have it pass, in an effort to offer acceptable performance with lower cost, if not to the customer, then in production. If it makes it through to handle side impacts at 1/4" with a double temper, cryo, and a polished surface, would it pass with a single temper, no cryo, and bead blasting for appearance or prior to coating. If all that is yes, then can we reduce the stock to 3/16 and save some money on material, while still offering a knife with enough heft for chopping and prying. You get the idea.

theonew, its really scary how, for years, I tried to relate what I learned in school to what knife makers were doing. Then I realized suddenly that some knifemakers were shooting in the dark and just happened to hit the balloon, so they keep shooting in the same direction. Kevin Cashen, Cliff Stamp, and Alvin Johnson pointed me in the direction of good, sound, scientific backup to observed behavior. All 3 have their critics, but all 3 at least try to use sound materials science to explain what they see. Just something to think about when you read about how the greatest knives are made by heating with a torch (which I admittedly use, until I actually sell some knives and buy an oven) and quenching in the liquid left over after cooking french fries or the mix of fluids left after scrapping a car. Dont get me wrong, people make knives for all different reasons and at all levels of quality. I dont care how or why, just dont make claims that dont make sense or that cant be verified outside the maker's shop. I had the background to finally make the observations line up with the theory. Just think, what will you do if you get a real metallurgist on this board? I was a C student and barely graduated. Half the reason I read and study this stuff is just to keep it fresh in my mind in case I need it one day. For practical purposes, I should be reading welding metallurgy stuff, since that's my area for work. JHC, you guys sure can make me long winded.

PS: from what I've heard, not verified, but heard, BRKT's heat treating theories are suspect, and I fully expect a new shit storm on the horizon when Noss tests one and finds it to fail about the same, or maybe a little better, than the CRK in A2. I have read that they tested one heat treatment and then dropped the knife and it shattered. I'm convinced that somehow that knife didnt get tempered at all, whether by design, just to see what would happen, or by accident. Somebody, please get a Nicholson file, covered in stress risers and above 63 HRc, and start dropping it from head height and tell me how long it takes to break. See also the dropping of the M2 knife above.

[NervusNorvus]

PS: from what I've heard, not verified, but heard, BRKT's heat treating theories are suspect, and I fully expect a new shit storm on the horizon when Noss tests one and finds it to fail about the same, or maybe a little better, than the CRK in A2. I have read that they tested one heat treatment and then dropped the knife and it shattered. I'm convinced that somehow that knife didnt get tempered at all, whether by design, just to see what would happen, or by accident. Somebody, please get a Nicholson file, covered in stress risers and above 63 HRc, and start dropping it from head height and tell me how long it takes to break. See also the dropping of the M2 knife above.

I for one, am keenly anticipating and A2 Barkie test.

[shmoopiebear]

Thanks xxo, but that Basic 7 was M-INFI (modified INFI), not A2. All the Basics were made of M-INFI, just like the Basic 9 that Noss tested here awhile back.

My bad. I did not know the knife was M-INFI. On another note the MIssion A2 was tested and seemed to do well. There was a mention of edge damage from chopping which was disappointing to see.

[will york]

No problem, shmoop--I'm sure Busse's A2 is exceedingly tough stuff. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

As most of you probably already know, Jerry started his unconditional warranty policy even before that, in the days of his ATS-34 blades. Heat treat obviously is the voodoo that hedo so well, regardless of steel.

[shmoopiebear]

Speaking of which has anybody read any tests or reviews of knives with a Paul Bos heat treat? How do they perform? Just curious.

[will york]

Speaking of which has anybody read any tests or reviews of knives with a Paul Bos heat treat? How do they perform? Just curious.

Striders are Bos-treated, either by Paul personally or using his protocols, according to their info. From Noss' testing of their S30V, they seem to be doing something right.

[culpeper]

Secret Santa gave me this knife today at the office. One of the ladies at work father made it. When I opened up the box the first thing I thought was, "Ah, finally a Legends of the Fall knife!". Cool!". First thing I noticed was the blade is from an Old Hickory knife:rolleyes::eek:. I've always wanted a Legends of the Fall knife so I was pleased to see this knife. Of course, the whole office was exchanging their secret Santa gifts. About 15 people in the room. Somebody across the room asked if it was sharp. I pulled it back out of the sheath, stood up, grabbed the box it was wrapped in, which was a brown shipping box and chopped it in half. I loved it.:rockon: Even the young lady that gave me the knife eyes' were as big around as saucers. After that she was strutting around bragging about her dad!:D Her dad is actually pretty cool. Retired cop now working in the film industry. He wasn't aware he made a knife similar to the one "Tristan" (Brad Pitt) used in the movie. He's not a knifemaker. Just likes to do various craft work in his garage. It's going in the kitchen for sentimental value and use.

SECRET SANTA KNIFE

http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/LOFCassie.JPG

LEGENDS OF THE FALL KNIFE REPRODUCTION

http://www.idahoknifeworks.com/legends.jpg

IMAGE FROM THE MOVIE

http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/LOF1a.JPG

[me2]

I never said I wasnt looking forward to it, I just have my doubts about how one will do. Of course, they use steels other than A2, especially for the larger knives, so maybe that will come into play.

[will york]

Culpeper:

I like yours better than the movie repro version. More comfortable looking grip, more authentic looking, and hey--we now know it's eminently bashable, which I'm sure Tristan would appreciate.

Fun Stuff. Congrats!
will

[Noss]

Culpepper: Neat looking old hickory mod. :thumb:

[G. Scott H.]

Check out the steering wheel. Looks like wood. That'd be a cool way to pimp your ride. Have a steering wheel made out of some really nicely flamed curly maple or a nice burly wood or something. :eek::rockon:

[culpeper]

It's a Ford Model T...

And Old Hickory knives were there too!

http://www.musclecarclub.com/other-cars/classic/ford-model-t/images/ford-model-t-1a.jpg

This is a Shapleigh's Hammer Forged Old Hickory knife from around the same era...

http://www.smithburgcollectibles.com/i/knives/tn_DSC02010.JPG

[G. Scott H.]

:rockon::cool::rockon:

[The Cameraman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Old Hickory took a beating, but the Chris Reeves Project is machined out of a single piece of steel, AAANNND it has a hollow handle for putting matchsticks and stuff inside.....I don't see a single place to store matchsticks on the the Old Hickory, so what the hell is it good for !?! :D

Seriously, though, one day I was watching the Food Network (don't judge me), and they were showing the preparation of a traditional peasant stew that had its roots in the slums of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The people are so poor, they find ways to prepare the scraps from the butcher that people of means wouldn't bother to use. Anyway, one of the ingredients of the stew is pig's tail, still attached to the pelvic bone. During the preparation work for the meal, the little brazilian lady took a kitchen knife and hammered it through the bone using a ball-peened hammer :D
I started laughing my ass off because it was not even a month after the Chris Reeves Project Destruction Test got posted and all the original backlash that the test was causing.

I wonder what all the "knife experts" would have had to say to this impoverished mother of five about the improper use of her cutting tools.

I NEED A PLACE FOR MY MATCHSTICKS!!! THE EFFING CAMERAMAN

[will york]

I wonder what all the "knife experts" would have had to say to this impoverished mother of five about the improper use of her cutting tools.


...now THAT's hilarious. Thanks for the Christmas grins, EC.

[Noss]

No problem the Old Hickory has you covered. :thumb::rockon:


http://knifetest.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=348&d=1230263063

http://knifetest.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=349&d=1230263079


:p:D:rockon:

[me2]

I think the majority of knife users will do things with a knife that us knifenuts wouldnt. I also think if the knife breaks, they say to themselves,"damn, that knife was a piece of crap". I also think a knife with a 1/4" thick spine, or more, and marketed as a tough knife is designed for more than just cutting. Basically, it all goes back to a rule I learned when my wife was pregnant for the first time. No matter what you're doing, everyone thinks their way is best, and if you're not doing it their way, they'll be glad to tell you how wrong you are. Of course this goes both ways, as we all think CR did something wrong and this has spawned a lot of text saying so. I will put forth the notion that the thing they did wrong was more related to marketing than knifemaking, but that is just an idea.

In light of that rule, there are people who will say she did it wrong. The "right tool for the right job" arguement only goes so far with me. You cant plan for everything, and even if you could, you cant carry (or in the brazilians case buy) everything you might need. Tool specialization is a wonderful thing, but it sometimes gets carried too far. I've been around high purity piping, and they use a facing tool to prep the pipe before welding. That facing tool is expensive. Files are about $10 and are good for more than facing. Necessity and skill can make up for a lack of tool specialization in many instances.

[will york]

No problem the Old Hickory has you covered. :thumb::rockon:

and here I was beginning to think the OH was truly a matchless blade...

[Noss]

Lol !! :D

[Noss]

I think the majority of knife users will do things with a knife that us knifenuts wouldnt. I also think if the knife breaks, they say to themselves,"damn, that knife was a piece of crap". I also think a knife with a 1/4" thick spine, or more, and marketed as a tough knife is designed for more than just cutting. Basically, it all goes back to a rule I learned when my wife was pregnant for the first time. No matter what you're doing, everyone thinks their way is best, and if you're not doing it their way, they'll be glad to tell you how wrong you are. Of course this goes both ways, as we all think CR did something wrong and this has spawned a lot of text saying so. I will put forth the notion that the thing they did wrong was more related to marketing than knifemaking, but that is just an idea.

In light of that rule, there are people who will say she did it wrong. The "right tool for the right job" arguement only goes so far with me. You cant plan for everything, and even if you could, you cant carry (or in the brazilians case buy) everything you might need. Tool specialization is a wonderful thing, but it sometimes gets carried too far. I've been around high purity piping, and they use a facing tool to prep the pipe before welding. That facing tool is expensive. Files are about $10 and are good for more than facing. Necessity and skill can make up for a lack of tool specialization in many instances.


Agree. People are going to do all kind of things to knives. I have done my best to debate this on blade Forums in the past but I didn't get anywhere. They feel because they don't do something with a knife no one else will.

[culpeper]

LOL!

I'm on top of this whole Old Hickory thing. I've been bidding on their agriculture knives. Got a super old cleaver and pig sticker too. I'm looking for a 14" "Field Knife" that has three brass rivets instead of two. They have a whole line of neat stuff. They need to look at expanding into the survival range. Noss, you're on to something. I would make sure you get royalties...:D

http://www.ontarioknife.com/indagr.html

http://www.ontarioknife.com/indagr2.html

[will york]

Those links are very cool, culpeper--some interesting and some odd stuff in there. I may need to get ready for the asparagus harvest a little early this year. :D

THANKS!
will

[Noss]

Yeah some interesting design variation.

[me2]

I'm still amazed that the BF thread is going, and also at how people seem to miss the point of this site. What was it again, just so I'm clear?

[G. Scott H.]

Yeah some interesting design variation. I look forward to seeing what their veggie/harvesting knives are like. They look like they're full flat ground from spine to edge, instead of the saber grind used on their more well known line. I'd like to see how the two compare in terms of strength. :cool:

[Noss]

I'm still amazed that the BF thread is going, and also at how people seem to miss the point of this site. What was it again, just so I'm clear?

Knife Tests.com During testing knives will or could break edges will be damaged, finishes will be scratched. Some will cut/chop better. Others will hold an edge better. Some knives will perform well others will not. Some can't deal with this but this is the nature of testing.

That thread is a monster at this point. I stopped reading it when it hit 500 posts.:eek:
I'm amazed also it has gone this long. I thought it was dead a few times but it came back to life.



G. Scott H.: I'm get some more OH knives and do some more testing in the future with them. I still plan to d-test the 10" one used in this test.

[culpeper]

I can't find the 484 Field Knife 14". Guess I'll have to find NOS somewhere. Apparently it has been discontinued lately. Their touting the 14" Butcher knife 7-14 as a replacement so I'll get one of the smaller farm hop knives to see if the thickness is different than OH and so forth.

[shmoopiebear]

Knife Tests.com During testing knives will or could break edges will be damaged, finishes will be scratched. Some will cut/chop better. Others will hold an edge better. Some knives will perform well others will not. Some can't deal with this but this is the nature of testing.

That thread is a monster at this point. I stopped reading it when it hit 500 posts.:eek:
I'm amazed also it has gone this long. I thought it was dead a few times but it came back to life.



G. Scott H.: I'm get some more OH knives and do some more testing in the future with them. I still plan to d-test the 10" one used in this test.

...for knifetests.com as long as the controversy persists. I think that is a good and positive thing. For every post they do I bet there are innumerable number of people who will visit this site just for curiosity's sake. It's a passive massive meme / viral campaign with massive ramifications and consequences. I, for one, hope it continues and even spirals out of control. More rep for Noss and he won't even have to lift a finger to do anything. All his detractors are doing the work for him. How bizarre and interesting the mob mentality and mechanism on the internet is.

[will york]

...for knifetests.com as long as the controversy persists. I think that is a good and positive thing. For every post they do I bet there are innumerable number of people who will visit this site just for curiosity's sake. It's a passive massive meme / viral campaign with massive ramifications and consequences. I, for one, hope it continues and even spirals out of control. More rep for Noss and he won't even have to lift a finger to do anything. All his detractors are doing the work for him. How bizarre and interesting the mob mentality and mechanism on the internet is.

You've inspired me. In the interest of building this forum, I've dived into the BF thread.

Welcome all you seekers of comparative blade durability wisdom.

[G. Scott H.]

Damn it! I broke my own rule of not posting in anymore of those threads. I decided I'd give it one more go. As I suspected, it did no good. :D I swear, that's the last time! :rolleyes::p

Noss's most hardcore detractors may end up unwittingly turning him into the stuff of legend. THey may have to start a seperate Noss forum at BFC. :D:rockon:

[culpeper]

Don't feel bad. I posted as well.

[Noss]

They locked the thread. It was a big one.:D

[shmoopiebear]

A couple of thoughts...

The Volvo analogy is sound. There are many examples of tests to destruction to refine and improve on designs. This is in order to engineer for optimization and refinement of a certain set of standards. It's advocated and done all the time as evaluation by government and private sector agencies to establish those parameters.

As for Sharp Phil, in order to understand his overall mentality you have to understand Ayn Rand. Phil advocates in no uncertain terms why he is a follower of Ms. Rand's philosophy. I was in a relationship with somebody for several years who attempted to follows the credos and philosophy of Ms. Rand. My only comment is that it that the philosophy is an interesting take on things and how to live life and is by no means perfect.

Interesting how the thread was finally locked especially by Joe Talmage. The mention of a lock the thread 'bot for anything related to Noss surprises me. I figure the discussions of Noss and the testing spiced things up at BFC and got traffic moving there as well as possibly bringing more traffic in. I see that as a positive thing for both BFC and knifetests and the discussions were pretty good overall. Oh well. Good of you guys to participate. It has certainly set a precedent to provoke more examinations of the said issues for the future. At least the thread was not deleted.

FWIW and IMHO.

[culpeper]

Somebody started a new thread. Noss? Have you ever tested AUS8?:D

[zenlifter]

And so another begins.......

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608310&page=2

The Pacific or whatever its called is said to be "better than no knife at all" twice so far. And these are it's defenders. LOL.

$300. LOL

I'd be pissing and moaning about these tests as well if I was snookered into one of these blades.

I do find these threads entertaining. Knife politics I guess.

Green Beret and Pacific is the title.

Picking on Noss' tests again.

:p

[culpeper]

What is the obsession with Noss over there? "You know this is the kinda shit that's gonna bring this situation to a head."

[BimotaBoy]

Poor Noss no fuzzy sticks!:p

[Noss]

No I haven't tested any aus8 yet. The thread was locked before I could respond to it. I tested AUS6 the SOG Seal 2000 and unknown to Dull Phil it didn't break while being hammered thorough concrete. In fact almost no knife has broke during this test. Only 1 or 2 have I think. The Smith and Wesson and the Mora clipper. They had the same problem almost weak tang/handle design not fragile steel.



BimotaBoy: LOL :D Is this all I have to do is make fuzzy sticks during testing ? This I suppose will shut up the critics I guess.:rolleyes: NOT !!! :p:D

[culpeper]

Ah Hah! No AUS-8 tested. Sharp Phil was right. They were all right. Like that blind female Olympic ice skater. She used AUS-8 skates. Her laces broke and to the horror of another forum's crowd she went slamming straight through their display stand breaking her blades, several custom knife blades, as well as, many bones. They blamed the whole thing on Noss because the AUS-8 was never properly tested but Cameraman was the one indicted. They went so far as to create an entire 506 page thread on the topic only to be closed at great sacrifice by Sharp Phil and the thousands of personal attacks he had to endure. Guess we will never know now just how many zeroes and ones it takes to kill Sharp Phil's ego. Saved by the bell.

[me2]

Do you still intend to do a destruction test on this knife? The place I found the Cold Steel machete has some 7" blades that would make good scalper pattern knives, with a little grinding and a new handle.

[culpeper]

My 14" Old Hickory blade came in today. It's a monster butcher knife.

[me2]

There were some early reports of fragility on the 14" models.

[culpeper]

Those early reports are over one hundred years old.:D

Look at the size of this thing! (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/OHON14.JPG)

They run about $13.00.

[me2]

I'm just sayin'

Seriously, I think they were on BFC on the W&SS subforum.

Is the hop knife flat ground from the spine?

[culpeper]

me2:

Don't know exactly what you mean by ground from the spine so here is a magnified image. You may need to click on the image itself to get the full size depending on your browser.

Ontario 6" hop knife (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/ONHOP6.jpg)

,,,

[culpeper]

BTW, the BFC WSS stuff is from 2007. Noss, sort of sacked those opinions with the 10" test on this thread.

[Noss]

me2: Yeah I plan to d-test one. It may be a little while before I get to it. I'm so swamped with work and other knife test projects at the moment it's all getting to be a bit much for me. But I'll do my best to test one as soon as I can. :)


culpeper: That's a big one. :thumb: The nice thing about good inexpensive knives
is if you do break one or mess it up some it's not like you loose a car payment or anything. :D At old hickory prices it's easy to afford a spare or two. Let us know how it works for you. :thumb:

[shmoopiebear]

Those early reports are over one hundred years old.:D

Look at the size of this thing! (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/OHON14.JPG)

They run about $13.00.

Heck of a knife for $13.00. Can't find these in Canada yet. :(

[tantal5.45]

hello everyone this is my first post but im gonna throw my 2 cents in about old hickory i used to have one when i lived on a farm i did every thing with it chop, hammer ,pry, pound cut twine burlap bag and even break bailing wire with it i dont think i could break it short of the destruction test hell i rarely cleaned it i think a paid about 8.00 for it i lost it in the field my granddad found it about a month later it wasnt worth a damn after that

[zenlifter]

hello everyone this is my first post but im gonna throw my 2 cents in about old hickory i used to have one when i lived on a farm i did every thing with it chop, hammer ,pry, pound cut twine burlap bag and even break bailing wire with it i dont think i could break it short of the destruction test hell i rarely cleaned it i think a paid about 8.00 for it i lost it in the field my granddad found it about a month later it wasnt worth a damn after that

Welcome. Sounds like Old Hickory Knives are Farm Tough. :thumb:

[G. Scott H.]

Those early reports are over one hundred years old.:D

Look at the size of this thing! (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/OHON14.JPG)

They run about $13.00. Yeah, baby! :rockon: That's the one I suggested to Noss long ago, but he wimped out and went with the 10" model instead. :rolleyes: :D Can we get an in-hand pic of that thing?

[culpeper]

But it isn't. It's a Berylco nonmagnetic and non-sparking knife. The steel is Beryllium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium) and as such is considered disposable because grinding on the blade can be hazardous to your lungs. Knife was ordered for development by the USN EOD and can also be procured by the other branches through the Navy. Interesting tool obviously designed as a basic field knife for EOD use.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/EOD_Ber_knife.jpg

[culpeper]

Still looking for an Ontario ON484 14" blade field knife...

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ontario/images/on484.jpg

[G. Scott H.]

Still looking for an Ontario ON484 14" blade field knife...

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ontario/images/on484.jpg


Forgot to add this. I was searching around for those online the other day and I came across this: http://www.osograndeknives.com/Ontario/ontario_-_field_knife.htm. :( I wonder how many sold before they got canned? That may be a nearly impossible knife to find.

[culpeper]

Forgot to add this. I was searching around for those online the other day and I came across this: http://www.osograndeknives.com/Ontario/ontario_-_field_knife.htm. :( I wonder how many sold before they got canned? That may be a nearly impossible knife to find.

Okay, I was able to find out that Ontario still has a certain number of these discontinued knives on-hand and was also able to get knifecenter.com to put them back online. I just ordered two. Once they are gone from the factory that will be the end of them. Much thanks to Bob Cramer at Ontario for the information and pointing me in the right direction and big thanks to The Knife Center outlet.

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ONW5045&

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ontario/images/on484.jpg

[will york]

Very thoughtful of you to post that, Culpeper. Thank you.

[tofulatte]

Okay, I was able to find out that Ontario still has a certain number of these discontinued knives on-hand and was also able to get knifecenter.com to put them back online. I just ordered two. Once they are gone from the factory that will be the end of them. Much thanks to Bob Cramer at Ontario for the information and pointing me in the right direction and big thanks to The Knife Center outlet.

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ONW5045&

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ontario/images/on484.jpg

Hi Culpeper, any chance you can give us a quick review of the field knife? How does it chop? How does it compare to the larger Old Hickory knives? Thanks

[culpeper]

It should be delivered today. I will update soon. Thanks.

[culpeper]

Noss has already done a good job showing how these knives chop so I'm not going to run through that again.

The 484 field knife is a full grind 14" blade with three brass rivets along the scales and tang. The spine is not finished. It is slightly lighter than the Old Hickory 14" butcher knife. The 484 was designed for working in agriculture fields for harvesting cabbage, cauliflower, and so forth. The edge is a sabre type edge. This is a good economical knife if you are going to be swinging in the bush for long periods.

The Old Hickory 14" butcher knife does not have a full grind from the edge. Instead, it has a partial grind approx. 25% of the blade width with a sabre edge. There are 2 brass rivets along the handle. The spine is finished. This is a good economical knife for bushcraft.

Basic differences between the two knives.

-- The butcher knife is more finished so it can be presentable in a kitchen and a little bit heavier.

-- The field knife has a more durable handle set up and is slightly lighter and less finished for field work where presentation is not a concern. Except the full grind on the field knife looks better and is more suitable in the field than the butcher knife.

-- The above differences are not material to how each would perform as bush craft. I would say that the field knife as a full-time machete and part-time chopper and the butcher knife as a full-time chopper and part-time machete.

Catalog Page:

Ontario Butcher and Field Knives (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/oncatalog.JPG)

Picture of the field knife and butcher knife:

ON484 14 inch field knife and Old Hickory ON714 14 inch butcher knife (http://www.myculpeper.com/photos/ohbutcherandfield14inch.JPG)

...

[tofulatte]

thanks for the review, man! Looks like there's not much different between the two.
I'm did some chopping with a 8" Old Hickory last weekend. Well sharpened, it chops pretty good for a lightweight knife. Good enough to build a lean-to shelter, limb branches and readily split firewood with a baton.
I don't think I want to carrying something 14" long when backpacking. 8"-10" is more handy. I'm looking at the 8" field knife, which has a full grind I like.

[culpeper]

thanks for the review, man! Looks like there's not much different between the two.
I'm did some chopping with a 8" Old Hickory last weekend. Well sharpened, it chops pretty good for a lightweight knife. Good enough to build a lean-to shelter, limb branches and readily split firewood with a baton.
I don't think I want to carrying something 14" long when backpacking. 8"-10" is more handy. I'm looking at the 8" field knife, which has a full grind I like.

You mean the industrial 8" inch field knife and not the Old Hickory 8" butcher knife or vice versa?

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ONW5065

...

[tofulatte]

I have the 8" Old Hickory butcher knife and did the test with that. I'm interested in the 8" field knife with the flat grind.

You mean the industrial 8" inch field knife and not the Old Hickory 8" butcher knife or vice versa?

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ONW5065

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[cvnhank]

Does anyone know the difference between the "old" Old Hickory vs. the "new" Old Hickory regarding durability? Is the "new" Old Hickory as tough as the "old" version. The "new version has thinner steel and no "Old Hickory" on the handle. Hank

[culpeper]

There hasn't been much change over the years but the knives have become a little thinner. The best Old Hickory knives are the Shapliegh 1843 stamped ones. These were originally manufactured and sold through the old Shapliegh Hardware Co. The 1843 is just the year Shapliegh started selling hardware and not the date of the knife. Nevertheless, they were still manufactured by Ontario out of New York. If you find one stamped 1843 1934 that is special marked knife. After 1934 they began marketing them as "True Edge" Ontario Old Hickory Knives. Still not much has changed but the best ones were manufactured before the 1970s.

[cvnhank]

Thank you culpeper

[wildjim]

I like to find an "old" Old Hickory knife no luck yet at the flea markets.

Thank You Culpeper for the information now I know what to look for. . .

[Trekon86]

I just convexed the edges on a couple of my Old Hicks "project" knives and man are they wicked! They are useable for carving after being convexed...much like a Mora.
*peers around in paranoia, hoping fervently that Bindle isn't on this board*
:D
PMZ

[Trekon86]

Here are a couple of Old Hicks "Project knives" I've done recently:

This one was modified from a boner (lol) or slicer model, not butcher:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/th_00002-28.jpg (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/00002-28.jpg)

These were Butchers or similar:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/th_00005-22.jpg (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/00005-22.jpg)

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/th_00010-8.jpg (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/00010-8.jpg)


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/th_00003-23.jpg (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/00003-23.jpg)


:)
PMZ

[culpeper]

Cool!:thumb:

[fartingbadass]

The newer Old Hicks are not all that good. I purchased a new "skinner"" a month or so ago. It went out last weekend for some hike time in the mountain behind my house. It was cold, real cold actually, and snowy. I did a bit of light batoning with the knife to prep some firewood, and the one rivets holding the handle on popped off. The knife was still usable, indeed, I did not even notice until I got home, but it was a bit of a shock. I have used this brand and model for years. I had one on me when I did some serious mountain climbing about ten years ago, that Old Hick went up to just above 14,000 feet, and without a problem. That knife has been with me everywhere. I am, to say the least, bummed about this new one. I'll post some pics when I get a chance.

[PawPah]

I have an 8 inch butcher that I have used in the kitchen and the field for more than 45 years. Tough and stays sharp! I bought another one about 3 years ago but it doesn't hold an edge as well and the handle is crude in comparison. I plan on testing the 8inch slicer soon. I hope it compares to my vintage knife rather than the newer one.

[The_Price_Is_Right]

I have been eyeing some of that Old Hickory stuff, as well a Green River Hunter knife.