some knives can only get "so sharp"

[Richard J]

a few weeks ago i was sent quite a few knives by a bf member to get sharpened. a few were ontario knives and a few were good german steel. the ontario knives took a good edge as well as the german steel knives. both would shave hair easily but the ontario knives wouldnt slice paper like the german steel knives would. this aggrivated me so i started experimenting with an ontario knife that i have. i gave it a convex edge to start and it shaved hair but wouldnt slice paper. i thinned the edge and put on the basic v edge with the wheels and got the same results. i had 2 other carbon steel knives and sharpened them up the same way with the same results. just to make sure it wasnt me, i took a knife i made and resharpened it. this knife would shave hair and slice paper. has anyone else had this experience?

[culpeper]

Ontario 1095?

[Richard J]

i'm not sure what they use. i do know that a file cuts the edge on the ontario knife i have and the same file slides and leaves no mark on the one i made. they probably leave them a little soft so they will sharpen easy.

[culpeper]

Well like I mentioned on the Air Force knife test I was never able to get mine sharp and nobody could as well. I read somewhere that the edge need reprofiling so you can sharpen them yourself. Other than that I guess their steel has a tendency to act like 440C with large enough carbon along the sharpened edge to prevent ever getting scary sharp.

[Richard J]

i have 2 tanto blades that are 440 c which my friend art summers gave me. they needed heat treated so i told him to take them up a few rockwell points which he did. i cant remember how much but i let a buddy chop through a deer leg with the largest one. it went through in 1 swing and didnt hurt the edge. it has a wicked edge which i'm thinking of turning into a convex edge.

[culpeper]

Cool. :thumb:

I was referring to something like the old Buck 440C. They switched eventually to 420HC because their customers aren't good knife sharpeners and were complaining over a period of several years before the change. I believe I got that information from someone associated with Buck knives. If there are too large of carbon particles in the steel you will never get that edge super razor sharp. Not even you......:D I'm referring to particles invisible to the naked eye but still too large to create a really sharp edge.

I'm not a real big fan of commercial 440C or AUS8 blades. Like you stated they need further treatment to make them better but that costs more money in the manufacturing process. I would rather have a high carbon 420, AUS6, or a 440B blade. I believe Randall uses 440B. I may stand corrected on that one.:eek:

My favorite commercial stainless steel is SF100. I bet you never heard of that one.....:)

[Richard J]

no i havent. when art ground a blank and didnt like it, he always asked me how i wanted it heat treated. i always told him to take it to the max with the heat treat. the knives of his that i have dont have your typical heat treat.

[Koa]

The only ones I have not been able to sharpen were a few stainless no-names that a friend had. He brought me all of his knives one day and a few of them were just impossible no matter how hard I tried. So yes I believe some steel cannot be sharpened properly for whatever reason.

[Noss]

I have a few Sog's that I can't get sharp. They are stainless AUS-4 I think. No matter how long I work on them I get no where fast. I guess Sog couldn't sharpen them either since they came dull out of the box. :headbang:

[me2]

I had this experience on an Air Force Pilots Knife from Ontario. No matter how long I worked it on a stone, it wouldnt get sharp. I also had this happen on a Smith & Wesson hunter. I took it to a large, 1.5-2' diameter, slow moving water cooled wheel and still couldnt get it sharp. It was 440C. I must say I like Benchmade's 440C better than others I've tried. It will get nice and sharp. Much sharper than the stuff in the S&W.

[jankerson]

The only knife I couldn't get sharp was an old S&W DE boot knife back in the 80's. :mad:

It came duller than a butter knife and after a lot of work I still never got it sharp. :headbang:

Now I used to sharpen knives for my USMC buddies so I knew what I was doing, I had a really nice Tri-Stone I used back then.

[mtb 26]

I had the exact same problem with my Gerber gator folder, at first it really pissed me off because I thought it meant there was something wrong with my technique and I couldn't figure out what. I guess some knives just don't want to be sharpened :D

[The Tourist]

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. Many times a knife just seems reluctant, or a beautifully polished edge "sticks" a bit when slicing newsprint.

I went to a local cobbler and asked him if he had any horsehide, which is becoming difficult to find in my area. He had a section and cut me several strips. It's very fine grained and sometimes a simple stropping helps.

I did try something once that seemed to cure the problem. I have a few cans of Mothers polishing paste laying around. I took a small fingerful of Billet paste and rubbed about an inch section into the middle of the strop. That way the edge had to cross this little strip on every stroke.

I can't tell you why it works, but it does. I found that odd since I use Mothers paste on my paper polishing strips. I even "get up on the edge" to try and remove any vestiage of a burr I cannot see.

Sometimes you have to try every trick in the book.

As for cleaning the strop, being a biker I often have grease or other filth to remove from my hands. I have a tub of that green goop gel soap here. I took a bit and simply scrubbed the strop and let it hang dry.

[wildjim]

Since using a belt sander I've been able to sharpen knives that I had trouble sharpening, so actually the edge needed to be profiled or shaped.

Many of my knives vary in sharpness because of hardness and or edge shape but all will shave and most importantly cut things.

[The Tourist]

hardness...most importantly cut things.

Agreed. We also have to look at the 'man' as well as the metal.

I also like Opinel knives, a product usually costing five to ten dollars. In the hands of a guy who knows how to sharpen the quality of that knife is almost unimportant.

About ten years ago I showed a four-inch Opinel to a group of friends. Some had never seen this French knife, some doubted if it would be of value to a "knife snob." I said that I would carry this knife as my EDC for a few weeks to find out.

Well, I knew two things. One, it is a good knife and it has many loyal followers. But two, I'd be polishing a lot.

Having said that I have seen some Pakistani knock-offs of the Buck 110 that sharpen like a chocolate bar and are worthless after their first job of slicing.

[kurodrago]

I had trouble sharpening only when we didn't know how to sharpen a knife.
I sharp all my knife by hands & reprofile the edge with no problemo.
To many knifemaker they don't know how to do with both!?:jerkit:

http://knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1487
I can shave my self any time.

[knigthzone]

I have a few Sog's that I can't get sharp. They are stainless AUS-4 I think. No matter how long I work on them I get no where fast. I guess Sog couldn't sharpen them either since they came dull out of the box. :headbang:


Just find another one and there are many sharp knife better than what you have.

[Old Spice]

I have a have a Schrade Old Timer and on of the blades on it just won't take an edge I'm doing good If I can get the thing to slice paper. I think I might try re-profiling as it seems like it has a really steep edge even for something so thin.

I also gave on testing sharpness by shaving hair, I ran out of hair.

[culpeper]

I have a few Sog's that I can't get sharp. They are stainless AUS-4 I think. No matter how long I work on them I get no where fast. I guess Sog couldn't sharpen them either since they came dull out of the box. :headbang:

When I was learning I sharpened on an SOG so long that I virtually ruined the damn knife. I was so pissed at myself. I used a Norton stone and damn near sharpened that knife into a filet blade. It was ugly. I still have that knife in my bag of sharpening tools. Just to remind me how easy it is to fuck up a knife even with just a sharpening stone.

[gak]

When I was young a lot of the knives given to me were really low-end steel that was hard to sharpen. I bought a Gerber BMF that always had a huge flappy aluminum-foil-like burr, if you removed it it would always take the entire sharpened edge with it. I don't miss those days.:o

[Richard J]

yesterday i had a guy stop by to get 2 knives sharpened. one was a rough rider 2 blade pocket knife. i could get it sharp but not shaving sharp. i tried working up a burr 2 times and buffing it several times on the slotted wheel. does anyone else have a rough rider pocket knife that they have trouble sharpening? i'm thinking the heat treat was not up to par on his knife.

i also sharpened a fillet knife for him and it shaved easily.

[Old Spice]

I had a similar knife to the rough rider 2 blade pocket knife, just under a different name. One of the blades is crap, won't take an edge at all. I'm positive its something wrong with the heat treat. There is no reason for it to not get sharp when the second blade can get sharp enough to easily shave and push cut phone book paper.

[sweden]

i got the same thing with a sog knife and a finnish knife hand-made knife.... cant get them sharp..

[culpeper]

I purchased a five star Inox Sabatier chef knife. It won't hold a bead on the edge when sharpening. The edge just flakes. The only solution is to strop the edge at the point of flaking but the knife will only get so sharp. My conclusion; These knives can't live up to their old reputation and people need to know about it.

http://thebestthings.com/knives/sabatier.htm

[Old Spice]

That sucks culpeper. Have you tried contacting them about it?

[culpeper]

They're imported from France. I doubt I would get any satisfaction from the importer. Magnumforce needs to tell the manufacture to pick up the quality or quit selling their seconds to dumb Americans like me.:) I'm replacing it with an American made Dexter chef knife. I know these will at least get razor sharp no different than Old Hickory knives. But Old Hickory discontinued their chef knife. Too bad

Basic Dexter Chef Knife $30
http://img2.foodservicewarehouse.com/Prd/500SQ/DexterRussell_63689-8PCP.jpg

Another Basic Dexter Chef Knife $45
http://img2.foodservicewarehouse.com/Prd/500SQ/DexterRussell_45-8.jpg

[Madnumforce]

I'm sorry to read about that Culpeper. But I don't think they keep their seconds for the export. I've bought one, in a shop right on the main street of Thiers, and it has the same problem. It was a forged one, though, supposed to be high quality. But I soon found out that cheap 32 Dumas Ainé knives with black plastic handle and partial tang hold a much better edge. And I have a friend working at Au Nain cutlery, where their knives can get crazy sharp. That Sabatier à l'Elephant brand doesn't seems to be up it's reputation, and that's a shame. Thiers-Issard, the mother company, is supposed to be carefull though. But due to how the cutlery industry in Thiers was born and organised several brands share the name Sabatier (in fact, Sabatier is just a surname, and it transmitted to different heirs later founding different brands, transmitting the name through marriage and such, etc), one being of the same "holding" than 32 Dumas Ainé. All these different Sabatier brands rapidly gets misleading.

Did you pay much for that deceiving chief knife?

[culpeper]

I think I paid about $80. Too bad their quality has gone down. They used to make a quality knife. The marketing here is that "their" Sabetier is the authentic one. Gets confusing that is why I posted a link to the one I purchased. If anybody knows of a good article written on the various Sabatier knives please post it on a new thread for information purposes. Thanks Madnumforce. Sorry I mispelled your name earlier. I got you mixed up with Magnum P.I.:)

http://images.zap2it.com/images/tv-EP00002745/magnum-pi-7.jpg

[Madnumforce]

In fact, my pseudo is a pun with Magnum Force, with Clint Eastwood, I found when I was in math class, thus the "Mad Num."

Right now, I don't have much information about the different brands. What I can say is there is no "authentic" brand, what matters is if it's imported or not, cause sadly some makers prefer to outsource in low-cost countries. But not the Sabatier à l'Elephant brand. I can't exactly tell where the flaw comes from, it can be during forging (overheating would increase grain size, and that could be consistent with the defect we're observing, though I would like Cliff to confirm that) or HT. I'll try to gather info about the various Sabatier brands. Luckily you don't ask the Pradel, there are dozens of it.

[culpeper]

I ended up with a Dexter chef knife. Sharpened right up and Mrs. Culpeper promptly cut herself as usual. Funny thing about Dexter. They won't tell what steel they use. Based on sharpening it it appears to be a low cost stainless. Probably 420 HC. They do claim it is a high carbon stainless. Yeah, it is a 420 HC I'm sure.

[Richard J]

joe, i'm curious to see the inox blade. would you want me to see what i can do with it? maybe you are not holding your tongue right :D. are you still using the paper wheels?

check out this vid that a bf member that goes by unit made of k II, the knife i beat the crap out of and it still shaves hair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_eMwRaHYg

before the knife was sent to unit, the knife was sent to another member who is in the air force. he is an s.e.r.e. specialist that trains pilots how to survive if they get shot down. here are 2 vids he made of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esp9tg4ZBpA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hW_XDLecms

[culpeper]

I threw that knife in the dumpster. Nice vids.