Batoning!!!

[Carney]

Should this be an option in a wilderness survival knife?!?
NO!!! There are a lot of people at BF that would disagree!!!
If you are scared to baton with a knife,keep it at home!!!
Noss they tore me up, especially when they found I was associated with "the freak in the mask". Little punks made me mad!! You must have broken some of there little toys in one of your batoning tests!

[kurodrago]

Batoning is somewhat a controversy, The first function of any knife is cutting not batoning. I think it's all about knowledge and what you carry.
I use this technique only a few times, seriously I don't like batonin for the simple reason that you lose the sharpness quickly.however, this process varies from steel to steel, but the truth is regardless of what steel your use, any steel will lose some degree sharpness. And then takes over the topic big or small knife!? Definitely I will not baton
with a mora o knive of the same size....for the simple reason that I don't wont break the knife or be left without one.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/tso1.jpg
This old photo
This what I carry on the woods today+ a folding saw + leatherman multi-tools ;)

[Carney]

Kuro, when you rough it it the woods, determined to use only one blade, knowledge of that one blade is a must. I am just saying as a Survival Tool, cutting is not the only function your blade has. It is now a chopper, borer, shovel, hammer, etc.. I respect people that "bushcraft' with multiple tools. I personally like the one blde approach to prove myself and my blade, so we know our limits. Then when you can do with little you , you can excell with much! So for "ME", (not everyone,) not batoning with a bushcraft/survival knife is not an option. Good to hear from you Kuro, have a blessed day!

[Noss]

I have no problem with batoning in the field. I really don't see what the controversy is about it. I baton some almost every time I'm out in the woods. Never broke a knife but then I always choose tough fixed blades to take with we. My work knife looks like hell when I get home but that's what I like. I prefer knives I don't have to be careful with. :thumb:

[kurodrago]

Carney, I think the same way you do. I said that(The first function of any knife)not the only one let's careful here; Lake your said more you know about the knife you carry and better; with that specific knife, to know what you can do and what can not do is fantastic....{not batoning with a bushcraft/survival knife is not an option} True!!! but not everyone understand that.
Carney do you see the beast on the pic? with that knife I have ever had any problem when I am batonin!:)
I always carry to much.:rockon:

Noss, the controversy is do you really need to batonin wood,when chopping is more easy and faster;:confused:
especially with the branches of a certain diameter...however, depends on the circumstance. Split or batonin big branches or tree trunks with a knife hoo men... I really don't need too. In some case,can emegere a situation where I need to it.
Hoo shit I contradict myself.:p:D

[Noss]

kurodrago, I baton because it just helps me get the fire going easier with bigger pieces of wood. I can get to the dryer center and this helps. Many times the wood is damp were I go camping since it's laying on the ground covered in pine needles. Also it lets me kind of customize bigger pieces of wood for the fire. Chopping doesn't get to the center length wise so I baton it if I have to.

Here is a video the demonstrates a good use of batoning. In the video he had spit a piece of wood to make a fire board for a hand drill. It's just about getting the most out of your knife. At 5:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdeOfAOjLI0&feature=channel_page

[wildjim]

If I cannot baton a large camp "survival" style knife I don't want it. Its the only way to effectively prepare fire wood as chopping with a camp knife will wear you out.

I do not use my KA-BAR Becker BK9 for this reason as a few have catastrophically failed during batoning wood. I do not trust it : (

[kurodrago]

Noss, I think it is nice to know so many techniques and use it at the appropriate time.:)

The guy on the video give good info but let me say is batonin with a toothpick.:D
I really lake him....each time he sells something new!? A new kit comes up.
The question remains...jesus how many kit he carry at once:confused::D

[Carney]

Batoning is not only good for fire but for getting to the heart of wood to build tools or traps, etc..
A way of "milling" the wood in the wild. For me, I don't want a knife that I couldn't depend on , solo, to baton or whatever. I keep a rock on me, so sharpening isn't an issue. Me personally, I expect myself to be able to handle tuff situations, so why shouldn't I expect that out of my blade? And thanks Noss for what you do here!

[wildjim]

Since watching the video and tests I suppose I somewhat baby the Mora knife. I guess its just common sense when batoning any knife, that if the knife is moving through the wood then its alright.

[Noss]

Yeah the Mora is not the best choice for a hard use batoning knife. They are pretty durable though. The one in the D-test just didn't have a full tang and this was it's weakness. It did well for a thin light weight knife. They can be pushed some if needed.

[Carney]

Noss I have a SOG Elite seal pup, a spec plus survival (ontario), a K bar next generation, Buck 119 and several others. I "use" all of them hard because I want to know what they will do when I need them. My Benchmade Fecas Offsider was an awesome batoning knife and it was a supposed "figther" I hope to step up soon to one of the Busse, but I don't want a knife that want hold up. If my knife breaks batoning through wood, I don't need to take it on a gator hunt, cause I would be one less bro on your forum. And look brother, some of us do get the "method behind your madness"! I like you bro and were I come from we don't like people running down our folks! I wouldn't care if you broke every knife I owned, or take it personal, because you are "proving" them. You have torn down some folks "Golden Calfs", and made some enemys, but you have also made some friends! Keep up the good work, and lets baton some wood!

[Noss]

Thanks Carney. :) I've seen a lot over the last few years doing d-tests. I've learned a lot about many different knives. The safe queens will never understand. It's good to see real users who want to know the limits of their gear. :thumb:

[Nothus]

I must say my heart dropped when I brought out my brand new Lion King (Katz) and after batoning my first log it just fell apart in my hand. For the price paid I surely didn't expect this to happen. I justified it as maybe something got through QA and it was just my luck or maybe it the steel was too hard and brittle and I shouldn't be doing such things (XT80 steel).

So the kind folks at Katz did replace it at minimal cost, but I just wasn't happy. How can I trust this knife? I finally sat down on youtube to see what these people where doing. I saw much cheaper, much smaller, and what I thought much lower quality knives going through logs like butter.

After a few google searches I found this:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barkriverknives.com%2Fdocs%2F batoning.pdf&ei=yh0YTIeNEsTsnQfv36DDCg&usg=AFQjCNGjuIXXEnL8Bv0DOcLzvRRWcbckWA&sig2=3j91cLKnnyDG91UGZRQWNg

Sorry for it being a PDF, but here is the gist of it:
Broke many knives batoning.
Finally had a revelation about why knives break during batoning.
Tested it out on two inexpensive knives.
Is pretty sure the technique is the problem.

So the good technique is to make sure when you strike the knife blade, it should be square and level, and not having the handle below the point. You should hang onto the handle, but in no way should you try to help by applying pressure on the handle. What can happen is when you strike towards the point of the blade, what you're cutting is in the middle of the blade, and you're applying pressure to the handle, it puts undo pressure on the tang which can break/bend it. I'm sure the PDF explains it much better, with diagrams and all.

As a side note, when chopping with your knife (a bowie or kukri comes to mind) you should hold your knife loosely with most of the pressure from your thumb and middle finger while the rest of your figures are there for the ride (for the string players out there, it's like holding your bow). The chop is like throwing or letting your knife fall while guiding it with your hand. You're not trying to force your knife through with a tight fist for similar reasons above.

[The Tourist]

There are a lot of people at BF that would disagree!!! Little punks made me mad!!!

I'm always sorry to hear stuff like this. I got into forums rather late, and like an idiot, I always gave my sincere opinion. But as I learned the personalities on forums--coupled with info from the moderators I knew and actually met--I soon found that about 30% of the contributing members were flat out posers.

We had 'bikers' on biker forums who never rode in their lives. Yikes, and don't get me started on the MA forums!

If your experience mirrors mine, there is no doubt that those who criticized you the loudest have never even gone camping, much less did any serious wilderness hiking. Their idea of 'survival' is staying at a hotel with no room service.

I don't find the truth demeaning. I never liked camping, but if you ride long enough you wind up in a sleeping bag or in a driving rain. I did go out prairie dog shooting in SD, but my wife hated it. I'm not a tree-hugger, but I simply gave up formal hunting and camping.

But my strongest contribution to cutlery is research, refining edges and delving into Japanese knives. Mostly for kitchen use, but I did re-polish my kiridashi tonight. I gravitate towards examples which excel in precise slicing.

So don't let the little kids rattle you. A large percentage probably don't even own a Buck 110, much less a durable knife for serious woods exploration. And of that group, many are using their mom's computer. Stay the course.

[smitty]

I was on blade forms the other day, trying to research a knife that I want to purchase. I read on some thread that you should never baton with a knife. I thought are you crazy. I personally do not have a knife to baton with, I have been using a small 15" axe/hatchet, yes you can baton with an axe/hatchet :)
Any way I went to the point of emailing Mike Perrin ESEE, yeah I know I'm a dumb ass but I like to get my information from the horses mouth when I can, here's a blurp from the email:

Batoning should not bother the ESEE 6 or any other knife we make. The warranty is unlimited. Our view is that in the real world sooner or later you will find yourself in a pickle and have to use a knife for something it was never intended to be used for. Use should not have to worry about voicing a warranty to get a job done. Period.

Yeah he went on a little more about the warranty which is cool. But even he said in my words hell yeah baton!!
I think some of the people on bladeforum are a little hmmmm stupid yeah, and I've only been researching for like a month. I haven't really batoned with a knife before but when I get my rc6 Im getting out there and beating the shit out of it. I would rather have it break close to home then when I'm out there hiking.

smitty ...

[Barbarian]

See, now that's a knifemaker who stands by their product.;)

[Noss]

Thing about many blade forums members is they don't use knives they Worship knives. So they preach to everyone else not to hurt their religious icons :jerkit: Some of the people there have 50 of the same knife you can see this in many photos there ( not a scratch on any ) They are collectors not users and again these people usually preach to the masses to not put any hurt on their religious icons. :jerkit:


The wilderness and survival section there is well a joke for the most part since it's more about what you shouldn't do with your knives instead of exploring what you can do with them. Batoning is a taboo subject to many in this section.:jerkit: I stopped reading it long ago because of all the Bullshit those jokers are slinging there.

Do I baton with my knives ? HELL YES !!!! and proud of it. :rockon::D

[smitty]

I hope you guys don't think I'm off the wall or something. But when I read that I thought no way, hence the email to whats his face. I was in the esee thread. I was happy to hear his reply. I mean if battoning with a knife is a no go, then I would think the same about my hatchet.
Noss your right I was looking in blade forums yesterday I think, ppl showing off there knives, fuck to many of them had fricking like 10 15 knives.
For me I have a spiddy delica 4, bk11, and a gerber "f.a.s.t" that someone got for me that's it. I guess now you know why I'm looking for a new blade :) O BTW dont try stabing anything with the gerber, I was one day and if it wasn't for my gloves I would had been screwed, that's why it sits in the draw. The lock sucks!!

[Carney]

Baton them Hard, through whatever, whenever.....thats the proper technique

[MonkeyBomb]

I use my knives. I have none that look pretty. They get used and if they can't do what I need they get thrown in a toolbox to be abused.

[Noss]

Baton them Hard, through whatever, whenever.....thats the proper technique

I couldn't agree more. :thumb::D

I don't get all this anti batoning nonsense. I can understand it on a light duty blade not meant for abuse but many of these anti batoning crusaders preach against doing it with knives such as Busse and other heavy duty blades. This is nonsense in my book.

If your looking for a few basic rules. try and keep the knife as straight as you can. Don't try and baton a 6" dia log with a 5 " knife. all though it is possible to start batoning the outer edges first instead of starting dead center. try and avoid knots if you can. If your worried your knife can't handle it than don't do it. Some backyard batoning testing can tell you this.

[Barbarian]

Put one o' those naysayin guys out in God's country with snow comin down and nothin but a knife, while their butts are shiverin on the ground and see how long they go without batoning . Heh heh, thats just fun to imagine.;)

[penetrator]

Seems obvious that the whole anti batoning agenda is being pushed by knifemakers who build shitty knives. An outdoor/survival knife is an essential tool that your life may depend upon. Why would you buy one from a maker who basically says that it will break if you hit it with a freakin stick? Even if you don't intend to baton, you might have to, and even if you never have to, you can rest secure in the knowledge that your knife won't crap out on you.

These same knifemakers also seem to be the ones that denigrate Noss's tests. Draw your own conclusions. I based a large part of my buying decisions on the destruction videos and haven't regretted it.

[kurodrago]

In all my life I never needed batonin to save my life or even to light a fire!
Batoning is a new MODA born on the NET to beat the crap out of the knife for fun, entertainment, amusement, enjoyment call what you want!
The need to batonnig real takes extreme that can even I can image:rolleyes:
I you are in bad situation ask you self few questions before starting Batoning....
# Do I know how to do baton in the Coret way.
# Is my first time I use this knife.
# Can I trust the knife that I have tha will not break.
# Do I have any tool sharp my knife.
# Do I know how to sharpening a knife in the field.

Remember you,re sharp as you KNIFE;)

[fartingbadass]

In all my life I never needed batonin to save my life or even to light a fire!
Batoning is a new MODA born on the NET to beat the crap out of the knife for fun, entertainment, amusement, enjoyment call what you want!
The need to batonnig real takes extreme that can even I can image:rolleyes:
I you are in bad situation ask you self few questions before starting Batoning....
# Do I know how to do baton in the Coret way.
# Is my first time I use this knife.
# Can I trust the knife that I have tha will not break.
# Do I have any tool sharp my knife.
# Do I know how to sharpening a knife in the field.

Remember you,re sharp as you KNIFE;)

I agree with this. I dig batoning knives through wood, for fun. However, I struggle to think of a situation where I would do it in an emergency. I suppose, if there was very little wood, then I would baton. Maybe if all the wood was really, really wet, and I had to get to some dry wood in the center. But other than those situations, I really would not do it in an survival situation. Your knife might break, and then you have problems. Batoning is a good test to see how tough a knife is, but it is not that useful really beyond that.

[Noss]

I disagree. Batoning is very useful. Just because something is fun doesn't make it less useful or void it's purpose.

Spiting wood is a very common practice for bushcraft or camping or wood for your home fire place. Just because some of us use a knife to do it doesn't make it any less important. I'm not sure batoning with a knife is some new modern thing but even if it is then it's called progress. So I'm just at a loss why splitting wood with a knife is such an alien concept to people. :confused::rolleyes:

If a person becomes so afraid that he or she is going to break their knife then they become afraid to use the knife to it's full potential. This is why you should know the limits of your gear. I'm not going to freeze to death in a survival situation because I can't get a good fire going for a good amount of time for it to serve it's purpose because I'm afraid to perform a simple procedure with it that provides me with the necessary fuel to stay alive.

The last time I was out in the woods with the Busse NMFBM I had some good size logs that would just smoke instead of burning hot ( to much moisture I guess) And I had a damn good fire going but when I threw them on they just wouldn't burn well. Batoning solved this problem and my fire was bright and hot for a good while. I could have just said fuck it I may break my knife and spend every five minutes throwing on small stuff all night but the simple act of batoning gave me light and heat without all of the constant work. I know what my knife can do so I had no worries of breaking it. This was just a camping trip, I wasn't in any danger but if the situation would have been reversed I would have done well that night.

[chiral.grolim]

I've gotta side with Noss on this.
Last month I went on a backpacking trip along the IceAgeTrail here in WI. Myself and my two companions got a late start en route to our first bivy-site, an 'adirondack' shelter atop a fairly steep hill surrounded by marshland and ponds. The sun was already down but the moon was bright and we had flashlights. The temperature would drop into the 30s that night with a chance of rain, and while we were packed for cold and wet weather, the prospect of throwing up a tarp and bedding down for the night where we stood didn't appeal much to my companions, esp. since it'd been some hours since our last meal.
Following the spur-trail to the shelter required our flashlights to watch for roots and protruding rocks on the steep climb, and when we arrived I immediately set about looking for wood to build us a fire for heat, light, and something to cook a decent meal over. Well, the site must have been fairly popular because, other than the wet oak leaves scattered everywhere and a few larger log-size branches that had fallen from nearby trees, there was little decent fuel to be had. I spent a quick 5min scouring the ground with my flashlight, kicking through the wet leaves and pushing aside the small plants growing all over the area. Hunting for firewood in the dark, listening to the howling of nearby wolves and coyotes, worrying about tripping and stumbling down the hill to land in a marsh below, I tried to keep fairly close to the shelter and my companions. What I managed to collect were a few dead branches ~3'-long each, and some broken limbs ~4-5" in diameter (clearly left by previous campers who could make no use of them) that were solid oak, hard and seasoned though slightly damp on the outside.
Using the lint-tinder I always carry, I had a decent flame in a few moments, and with that meager amount of fuel I managed to collect in that short time in the dark in cold/wet conditions, I had a decent cooking fire going shortly thereafter and fuel to keep it going while we set up our sacks, ate a hot meal, and settled in for the night.

How did it go? I'd brought along my Cattaraugus 225Q and split various-sized bits off those hard oak logs to use as kindling, then larger pieces to build up some warm coals. I used the only wood I could find in a short time, wood that other campers had been unable to use, wood that had a dry core if only one could get to it, and I did so by batonning.

My father-in-law, one of the companions, had scoffed at my carrying such a large knife for backpacking, until he saw it used. With his knife, we'd have been cold and hungry, waiting for our gear to air-dry. This was by no means a "survival" situation, but the translation to one was clear in the superiority of a tool capable of making the most out of whatever resources one might be limited to in "harsh" conditions. It's important to remember that - when out in the wilderness, you cannot always count on having material resources that are easy to utilize. For the next campers to visit that spot, I hope they get there early enough to scout further out for fuel they can use, because unless they brought along a decent chopping/batonning implement, there'll be no fire for them come nightfall.

So that's my little spiel on the topic.
Oh, as an addendum, I also brought along my BRKT Bravo1 to try it out in the field. I didn't experience any edge-rolling, but it only got used once and just briefly - the 1/4" spine and short blade made it VASTLY inferior (less efficient) to the longer, thinner Cat225Q for the tasks we set them to - the Bravo1 would wedge, the Cat just slid on through. I was disappointed, kept wanting to use it, but after seeing them both in practice, my companions kept asking why I bothered even unsheathing it when we had a better tool right there. I still think it's a pretty knife and it still has an edge and handled being beat-on a bit, but it won't go backpacking with me again is all. *shrug*

[fartingbadass]

I disagree. Batoning is very useful. Just because something is fun doesn't make it less useful or void it's purpose.

Spiting wood is a very common practice for bushcraft or camping or wood for your home fire place. Just because some of us use a knife to do it doesn't make it any less important. I'm not sure batoning with a knife is some new modern thing but even if it is then it's called progress. So I'm just at a loss why splitting wood with a knife is such an alien concept to people. :confused::rolleyes:

If a person becomes so afraid that he or she is going to break their knife then they become afraid to use the knife to it's full potential. This is why you should know the limits of your gear. I'm not going to freeze to death in a survival situation because I can't get a good fire going for a good amount of time for it to serve it's purpose because I'm afraid to perform a simple procedure with it that provides me with the necessary fuel to stay alive.

The last time I was out in the woods with the Busse NMFBM I had some good size logs that would just smoke instead of burning hot ( to much moisture I guess) And I had a damn good fire going but when I threw them on they just wouldn't burn well. Batoning solved this problem and my fire was bright and hot for a good while. I could have just said fuck it I may break my knife and spend every five minutes throwing on small stuff all night but the simple act of batoning gave me light and heat without all of the constant work. I know what my knife can do so I had no worries of breaking it. This was just a camping trip, I wasn't in any danger but if the situation would have been reversed I would have done well that night.

I never said it was not useful nor did I say it was not fun. I just said I struggle to think of a time when I would baton a knife in a survival situation. If the knife breaks, then you have serious problems, unless you have a backup. Batoning while camping is fine. I have batoned almost every knife I own, I do so because it is a good way to test how tough a knife is. The only ones I do not baton are those that I know will break, e.g., my Buck 119--not a knife to baton, though still a highly recommended blade. My job takes me to some very remote places, e.g., the nearest town is 300 miles of jungle and swamp away, and I have to know what abuse my equipment can take. Batoning is one way to test a knife, but i surely would not do it when out in the field.

[xxo]

if batoning floats your boat and you find it useful that's great, but it seems like it's something a lot of knife guyz do for fun or to show everyone that they have a bad ass knife and/or they are a bad ass woodman.....a few may even believe it is something you need to do to build a fire and survive (it aint)

[Noss]

Yes you did say it wasn't useful other than a test. ;)


I agree with this. I dig batoning knives through wood, for fun. However, I struggle to think of a situation where I would do it in an emergency. I suppose, if there was very little wood, then I would baton. Maybe if all the wood was really, really wet, and I had to get to some dry wood in the center. But other than those situations, I really would not do it in an survival situation. Your knife might break, and then you have problems. Batoning is a good test to see how tough a knife is, but it is not that useful really beyond that.

[Noss]

if batoning floats your boat and you find it useful that's great, but it seems like it's something a lot of knife guyz do for fun or to show everyone that they have a bad ass knife and/or they are a bad ass woodman.....a few may even believe it is something you need to do to build a fire and survive (it aint)


Except for the first part I don't agree here either. I don't just believe it's something to show you have a bad ass knife. Believe me I can show this in much more extreme ways. :D


If you value being able to split wood by any method and most any serious Bushcrafter does ( just look at all the videos out there ) then doing it with a knife is of no less importance. It may not be required all the time but it's a great thing to be able to do and serves other purposes besides fire. Such as shelter building.

Another thing is many only relate there own experience within there own environment then apply this to everyone else. One may have tons of dry wood lying around so they can build a fire without batoning but not everyone does. Or they may say if you want to hammer something just use a big rock but not everyone has access to rocks. I sure don't in my area. Understanding this and adapting tools in different environments just might save you one day.

The other side of the coin is how many of us have truly been in a REAL survival situation to begin with. I haven't. So theories are fun to talk about on the net but if the shit happens how well is one going to deal with it ? I would say most like to talk a big game on the forums about how bass ass of a survivor they are. :rolleyes: This is much more blatant then showing a little batoning with a knife.

[xxo]

didn't mean you Noss :D:D just some of the dudes who have gone a little internet batonning happy :headbang: i don't have a problem with it, i have done it too, just don't see it as a life or death type of thing or something that is all that impressive.

[xxo]

to switch gears, it's funny how some of the people who used to push batoning as a live of die survival, after Noss breaks one of their favorite knives batoning into wood, jump all over Noss for abusing the knife or not holding the handle the right way when it broke.

[Noss]

didn't mean you Noss :D:D just some of the dudes who have gone a little internet batonning happy :headbang: i don't have a problem with it, i have done it too, just don't see it as a life or death type of thing or something that is all that impressive.

It's cool. I don't see it as a life or death thing it's just another way to use a knife to get work done.

[Noss]

to switch gears, it's funny how some of the people who used to push batoning as a live of die survival, after Noss breaks one of their favorite knives batoning into wood, jump all over Noss for abusing the knife or not holding the handle the right way when it broke.

It is funny I just always seem to do it wrong. :D The truth is I have never broke or damaged a single personal user batoning wood. Some test blades yes but these won't be added to my user list.

[fartingbadass]

Yes you did say it wasn't useful other than a test. ;)

Yes, indeed, I did, but note well that I also said I "dig" it.

[Noss]

Yes, indeed, I did, but note well that I also said I "dig" it.

Fair enough. :thumb:

[fartingbadass]

I've gotta side with Noss on this.
Last month I went on a backpacking trip along the IceAgeTrail here in WI. Myself and my two companions got a late start en route to our first bivy-site, an 'adirondack' shelter atop a fairly steep hill surrounded by marshland and ponds. The sun was already down but the moon was bright and we had flashlights. The temperature would drop into the 30s that night with a chance of rain, and while we were packed for cold and wet weather, the prospect of throwing up a tarp and bedding down for the night where we stood didn't appeal much to my companions, esp. since it'd been some hours since our last meal.
Following the spur-trail to the shelter required our flashlights to watch for roots and protruding rocks on the steep climb, and when we arrived I immediately set about looking for wood to build us a fire for heat, light, and something to cook a decent meal over. Well, the site must have been fairly popular because, other than the wet oak leaves scattered everywhere and a few larger log-size branches that had fallen from nearby trees, there was little decent fuel to be had. I spent a quick 5min scouring the ground with my flashlight, kicking through the wet leaves and pushing aside the small plants growing all over the area. Hunting for firewood in the dark, listening to the howling of nearby wolves and coyotes, worrying about tripping and stumbling down the hill to land in a marsh below, I tried to keep fairly close to the shelter and my companions. What I managed to collect were a few dead branches ~3'-long each, and some broken limbs ~4-5" in diameter (clearly left by previous campers who could make no use of them) that were solid oak, hard and seasoned though slightly damp on the outside.
Using the lint-tinder I always carry, I had a decent flame in a few moments, and with that meager amount of fuel I managed to collect in that short time in the dark in cold/wet conditions, I had a decent cooking fire going shortly thereafter and fuel to keep it going while we set up our sacks, ate a hot meal, and settled in for the night.

How did it go? I'd brought along my Cattaraugus 225Q and split various-sized bits off those hard oak logs to use as kindling, then larger pieces to build up some warm coals. I used the only wood I could find in a short time, wood that other campers had been unable to use, wood that had a dry core if only one could get to it, and I did so by batonning.

My father-in-law, one of the companions, had scoffed at my carrying such a large knife for backpacking, until he saw it used. With his knife, we'd have been cold and hungry, waiting for our gear to air-dry. This was by no means a "survival" situation, but the translation to one was clear in the superiority of a tool capable of making the most out of whatever resources one might be limited to in "harsh" conditions. It's important to remember that - when out in the wilderness, you cannot always count on having material resources that are easy to utilize. For the next campers to visit that spot, I hope they get there early enough to scout further out for fuel they can use, because unless they brought along a decent chopping/batonning implement, there'll be no fire for them come nightfall.

So that's my little spiel on the topic.
Oh, as an addendum, I also brought along my BRKT Bravo1 to try it out in the field. I didn't experience any edge-rolling, but it only got used once and just briefly - the 1/4" spine and short blade made it VASTLY inferior (less efficient) to the longer, thinner Cat225Q for the tasks we set them to - the Bravo1 would wedge, the Cat just slid on through. I was disappointed, kept wanting to use it, but after seeing them both in practice, my companions kept asking why I bothered even unsheathing it when we had a better tool right there. I still think it's a pretty knife and it still has an edge and handled being beat-on a bit, but it won't go backpacking with me again is all. *shrug*

BTW: The 225Q is just short of perfection, as far as a tough blade goes. Sweet knife.

[Carney]

Chop

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt165/carneychck/T-REX%20Knife/zilla17.jpg

Baton

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt165/carneychck/T-REX%20Knife/zilla19.jpg

Just natural men!

[Noss]

Yep, simple as that. :rockon:

[kurodrago]

I'm not sure if this technique is really need it in a survival situation (Perhaps) Clearly we can not Say That Every knife can take the baton without be broke or get bust ..
This is reality, that you can even see this on the Net.
I don't think we can call this progress too ... But I have little doubt That has to do with the military mentality ,,,,,
Which says, bring one tool to do Them All.
The don't see anything wrong with the statement above But, bring the right one!
Noss, always says, the individual should test his gear or stuff. Fucking-A true!
I look like I'm a pain in the ass [:D] I do baton my self too, the pic up soon.

[Noss]

It's progress man. Learn it, Live it. :D

[kurodrago]

It's progress man. Learn it, Live it. :D


I know:D
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p14/penrath/evolution.jpg

[kurodrago]

Me & my Giuli few days a go!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4828.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4813.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4814.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4815.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4816.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4820.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4821.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4822.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4823.jpg

[kurodrago]

My Giuli vs knot, Giuli wins knot loses!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4825.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4826.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4817.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4819.jpg


& finely the fire:D

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4840.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4841.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4846.jpg

[Noss]

There you go. Simple as that. :rockon:

[peter72]

My take on it,is when your young you beat your dick.When your old you beat your knife.

[kurodrago]

My take on it,is when your young you beat your dick.When your old you beat your knife.

So...you split logs with you dick:confused:

[peter72]

So...you split logs with you dick:confused:

That would be cool,a survival dick.Don't think i would want it D tested:eek:

[kurodrago]

That would be cool,a survival dick.Don't think i would want it D tested:eek:

Careful, Noss can make you become a woman:D:D:D

[styx]

We had 'bikers' on biker forums who never rode in their lives. Yikes, and don't get me started on the MA forums!


Man, I got in a fight yesterday because of this. Worst thing is the "biker" almost killed himself because he got a Fat Boy and never rode on anything before that. And almost took the club's colors because he though they are cool. LOL if the original chapter found this out they would skin him.

And back on topic... Why would anyone consider batoning abuse? I mean there's always the route of making wedges, starting the split, putting them in and then hammering them. Or carrying an axe, but even that tends to need an "extra push" to go trough some stuff.
On the flip side, you need to have some length for batoning decent sized logs. Some of us have enough problems as it is with smaller knives and crazy law selfinterpreting cops, so a bigger blade is a hard thing to explain.

[wildjim]

Man, I got in a fight yesterday because of this. Worst thing is the "biker" almost killed himself because he got a Fat Boy and never rode on anything before that. And almost took the club's colors because he though they are cool. LOL if the original chapter found this out they would skin him.

And back on topic... Why would anyone consider batoning abuse? I mean there's always the route of making wedges, starting the split, putting them in and then hammering them. Or carrying an axe, but even that tends to need an "extra push" to go trough some stuff.
On the flip side, you need to have some length for batoning decent sized logs. Some of us have enough problems as it is with smaller knives and crazy law selfinterpreting cops, so a bigger blade is a hard thing to explain.

I know someone who loves the biker outfit and has a sportster but can't ride worth a ding and really doesn't have the ride spirit. At our destination he got red faced and cursed me for taking some back country roads with a lot of twists and turns as he preferred the straight highway (I like to ride twists and turns and know of some great roads) ; )

I prefer to ride alone anyway ; )

[fncrazyno]

Riding stright roads just to get from one spot or another is one thing, but if you are a rider it quickly becomes boring as hell, twist, turns and country roads are the way to go. Obviously we are not talking riders and they don't get what riding a bike is about.

[peter72]

I don't have a car,just ADV bikes.A nice dirt road is what i like.

[Agith]

With regard to beating the handle to adjust the blade? I just wedge it a bit pushing the blade back out and hit that... I have gone through a ton of processing and never once have had to hit the handle of my knife. I don't understand why you guys decide to thwack your handles lol. I just push down on the handle and if it doesn't work right away pull up slightly and push down on the handle once more and the blade just pops back up! Am I missing something here? It just seems more logical this way ( To me at least ) since I don't want to either 1. Break my handle or 2. Get splinters stuck in the handle! ( For softer handle materials )

[Old Spice]

Batoning is done specifically on materials that you want to split, or are to hard to be chopped or cut through without the assistance of some sort of hammer.

[chiral.grolim]

With regard to beating the handle to adjust the blade? I just wedge it a bit pushing the blade back out and hit that... I have gone through a ton of processing and never once have had to hit the handle of my knife. I don't understand why you guys decide to thwack your handles lol. I just push down on the handle and if it doesn't work right away pull up slightly and push down on the handle once more and the blade just pops back up! Am I missing something here? It just seems more logical this way ( To me at least ) since I don't want to either 1. Break my handle or 2. Get splinters stuck in the handle! ( For softer handle materials )
*shrug* Sometimes the wood really binds the blade, takes a bit of whacking to get it free. But you need to be fairly confident that such action won't break or impale the handle. Honestly, I've only ever done this on micarta-scaled handles or the metal pommel of my Catt 225Q (wouldn't do it to the Catt's leather washers or my Gerber LMFII's rubber overmould).

[styx]

I know this is a dead topic but I was watching a vid it reminded me of this discussion. A few months back I had a discussion with someone who said "A true bushcrafter would never baton. You don't see Ray Mears batoning for a reason."
OK this is the same guy that also said that a certain knife isn't worth a damn because it broke during his review after he threw it.

But never the less it was said and I guess he was wrong
OvLmbss-F48

Actually if anything then this video just proves that you have to know the limitations of your tools (using the knife as a chisel and prying a bit)

[kurodrago]

Baton as to do with survival "Knife" more than anything.
You must always carry your with you; Because you never know when you'll need it. this means that your knife must be a convenient size to be carried without becoming a drag, and must also be capable of carrying out all those basic camp chores such as opening cans, hammering tent pegs, chopping things, cutting string and so on...& this Sknife must do the job of a small axe as well, so it must be strong.

In real life there ain't a place for such thing like survival knife but so many people likes criteria to own very strong knife/ves!


Ray Mears, he carry a ax apart..so not much battonig & also, the knife that he use will not bite very much wood, he can do baton in very small scale & most in nearly all cases inadequate.

[Madnumforce]

Well, that's very light batoning, the blade almost slip through the wood, opposing resistance close to none.

But what's funny is that Ray seems he wants to make a woodworking assembly called in french "trait de Jupiter" (I tried my best but could find the name in english), but hasn't completly understood how to make it properly. He makes his notch for the "key" chiseled on the flat, while the flat should run from the angled cut to the shoulder, like on this picture:
http://www.scoutorama.org/local/cache-vignettes/L250xH167/sde-186-dr-assemblage-fe8a8.gif
Only this way you can ensure a proper tightening, though the opposing wedges can be replaced with only one well deviced. But rather than all this woodwork, I would bring a metal S or a small chain.

[styx]

Oh I know this is very light batoning and that he carries an axe, but it's just a little bit of proof that it's an adequate technique and not abuse.

Madnumforce that is really interesting. Thanks for sharing that

[Noss]

I know this is a dead topic but I was watching a vid it reminded me of this discussion. A few months back I had a discussion with someone who said "A true bushcrafter would never baton. You don't see Ray Mears batoning for a reason."
OK this is the same guy that also said that a certain knife isn't worth a damn because it broke during his review after he threw it.

But never the less it was said and I guess he was wrong
OvLmbss-F48

Actually if anything then this video just proves that you have to know the limitations of your tools (using the knife as a chisel and prying a bit)


This is a funny comment. I see this all over the net when it comes to batoning. The armchair bushcrafters love to say things like this, The truth is almost all of the real survival experts baton and there is plenty of video footage showing them doing it.

A person with real outdoor experience will baton from time to time at least. They have done it a lot over the years. They know their knife can handle it because they have the experience with batoning.

Most of these armchair bushcrafters never get outdoors to practice anything. They just live in front of the computer and they call themselves experts. It's laughable at best.

[Madnumforce]

A bushcrafter may never baton, but it has to be his choice then, not the fear his knife bends or breaks. Even if he doesn't want to baton, he better makes sure his knife can handle it, in case he changes his mind in an emergency situation. Batonning isn't supposed to be abuse for a well made outdoor knife, though it can be considered useless, or unefficient, or whatever he wants, by the user. Discussing about the interest of batonning isn't an excuse to tolerate knives that fail batonning.

[Noss]

I think if most people are out in the woods with only a knife long enough they will baton something eventually.

Cody Lundin batons his little Mora all the time.

[kurodrago]

adequate technique and not abuse

Technique & Abuse are very subjective that varies from subject to subject "ppl"

example

At least the man..when we cut, shave the beard, but we all use different tools & technique but the Goal is the same.

Abuse its like to say if that knife is cheap or expensive? you will get a tremendous contrast do the fact that ppl will evaluate things through their own personal economy...
...so ABUSE its very personal evaluation with tremendous variation from guy to guy.

The quest for fire is the same thing!

[styx]

Great points. Shame more ppl don't realize these things. Hell I've even batonned an axe at one point because it was dull, chipped and I couldn't repair the damage at that point. But after all it's a wedge and it works.
Actually it's rather surprising to see how few ppl think of carving a wedge. Even if you don't want to rely on what your knife can take, it's enough to make a small split (maybe even a finger deep notch with a saw would work) and the wooden wedge can take it the rest of the way.

But as Noss said it - armchair bushcrafters don't go out

[kurodrago]

I think if most people are out in the woods with only a knife long enough they will baton something eventually.

Cody Lundin batons his little Mora all the time.




Long enough? How long? long enough to build a cabine?


Cody is telling people that a Mora is good baton with & you're saying the same thing?

[Noss]

Long enough? How long? long enough to build a cabine?


Cody is telling people that a Mora is good baton with & you're saying the same thing?

My point is experience. Cody has spent much time outdoors developing his skills over the years. He is comfortable batoning his Mora due to experience.

Shut in mall ninjas that claim to be experts have no experience. They make false statements like "A true bushcrafter would never baton"

Yes I would baton with a Mora on smaller material. Ive done this in fact and if your careful it's within the knives capabilities to handle it. I'm not going to tackle bigger pieces of wood like I would with a Battle Mistress.

[Cliff.Stamp]

Shut in mall ninjas that claim to be experts have no experience. They make false statements like "A true bushcrafter would never baton"


I was on the forums when this started to become popular and people started doing it with knives. When it happened there was the as to be expected flood of breaks, this resulted in two large arguments :

1) batoning was for the inexperienced/insecure. the same line you hear if you advocate a large knife over an axe

2) it is improper technique

The first is nonsensical for many reasons, not only is this a very common technique used by natives (I saw it constantly in India) it is a well known technique used by carpenters who do it with knives as it is faster in many cases than an axe. There is absolutely no grounds to argue against the technique in general.

The second was used for some of the most extremely flawed physics I have ever seen and I have taught some pretty wild high school kids with some extreme imaginations. The most common rant was that a knife should never be batoned if it is not perpendicular because that "maximizes shear" or some similar nonsense. The reality is that when the knife is perpendicular is when the internal torques are at a maximum.

Bottom line is this, batoning is not that extreme, when this got that out of hand on the forums and the rants against it were extreme I did a number of demonstrations with cheap machetes and even took a normal butter knife, ground an edge on it and batoned it through some small sticks with no issues. The reality is that this is simply one of the few ways that an average every day joe can actually subject a knife to significant stress and that is why it tends to cause so much failures.

As an actual really hard use scenario, try to limb off what they locally call "devils nuts", which are just the very well seasoned dead limbs of felled trees (seasoned more then 5 years or so). These are prone to break/fracture when you are cutting them and they produce severe edge torques as the edge twists instead of making clean cuts. I have chopped all day (and I mean all day) with a knife and then limbed a few such trees and the edge just went south immediately.

I have a video, many really, of me bucking with a MT-151 bowie, I did over 750 cuts through 2.5-4.5" spruce, pine, fir and birch with no issues. I then limbed one very small such stick, and the effort was really minimal, maybe 1/10 of the force I was using when chopping through the sticks. The edge immediately buckled/rippled. If you want a really hard use of a knife then do that, limb off such wood and preferably do it when you are not 100% so that your knife control is not ideal (cold, fatigued, stressed, etc.) as a simulation of a survival situation.

That being said, if you baton with a fillet knife and it warps then yeah, not the problem of the knife/maker, but this is rarely the case like the recent guy who snapped a Hoodlum in half on YouTube when trying to split a piece of wood, cracked right through the kettle notch on the blade. A piece of 1/4" 5160 should not do that regardless of how you are batoning, if the wood has knots, etc. unless maybe your last name is Kazmaier.

[styx]

I've seen those arguments on forums too. And just as the big knife vs axe thing it's said without proper support by facts. When someone is going against batoning then it's something like putting a Mora trough a 4 inch thick seasoned oak. One can't really expect that to go too well.
But it's interesting how you mentioned physics and twisting it because that's true too although I never bothered to notice it. Common sense tells you that you're just putting a wedge to split the wood. And Actual harder use from a standpoint of physics would be if you go against the grain.

[Cliff.Stamp]

I've seen those arguments on forums too. And just as the big knife vs axe thing it's said without proper support by facts. When someone is going against batoning then it's something like putting a Mora trough a 4 inch thick seasoned oak. One can't really expect that to go too well.

Yeah, that is an exercise is absurdity. Use the knife to carve a few wedges, cut into the top to open the grain and pound in the wedges.

However, in contrast, I just picked up a Chris Caine Survival Tool. It is 1075 at 52-54 HRC at 1/4" thick, sabre-convex and weighs north of 800 grams. Now what do you use that steel at that hardness at that grind to achieve if it is not phenomenal durability. If you are driving that through a piece of wood and it faults then something is wrong with the steel or heat treatment regardless of technique or knots in the wood or cold weather or any such nonsense.

That knife is simply such a massive piece of steel of a type which is picked for toughness at a temper which is made to provide toughness (and ease of axe type sharpening as you can file it) that it has to be expected to provide extreme durability. Now if he had chosen on the other hand D2 at 62 HRC and it was 1/8" thick with a full height hollow grind - then yeah, it isn't going to go well the first time you try to section a knot - but that isn't a survival tool then either, it is some abomination of a D2 tactical machete type object.

But it's interesting how you mentioned physics and twisting it because that's true too although I never bothered to notice it. Common sense tells you that you're just putting a wedge to split the wood. And Actual harder use from a standpoint of physics would be if you go against the grain.

Yes, most of the splitting videos ignore grain and show no idea about how to handle knots, they often try to shear through the knot, that is insanely difficult, it is like trying to shower a cat. But again, I don't come down to hard on technique as we are talking survival not bush craft and as well if it is winter, the wood is covered in snow, light is falling etc., it might not be to easy to see the grain and optimize edge placement and you will still want the knife to be able to split the wood.

[Madnumforce]

And in the old days, it seems it was common to baton the billhook to split small amounts of wood. I've seen a video about norwegian peoples living on a montainside, and they were splitting their firewood by hammering the billhook. Also here in France, on the porch of rural houses, I've seen billhooks resting near splitting logs, I guess it wasn't just to give a picturesque look. Recently I've bought on a flea market a billhook with a very wide blade and not much curve, and the back clearly shows sign of hammering. Not batonning, hammering. So it's really bullshit to say it's improper to baton: in the old days ot was pretty common to the contrary. Some modern knives, too hard and not tough enough, can't. Improper tools for improper peoples.

[Cliff.Stamp]

And in the old days, it seems it was common to baton the billhook to split small amounts of wood.

Yes, and as you noted they are often hammered on the back, they are differential hardened anyway (edge quenched with water most of the time) so the back will ignore such impacts and just flatten a little.

Some modern knives, too hard and not tough enough, can't. Improper tools for improper peoples.

Yes, the only real issue is when they are advertised for such. The main issue is problems in design (square tang/blade transition) or steel/heat treatment which leaves them prone to fracture (often improper soaking which causes carbide fracture nucleation).

[styx]

And in the old days, it seems it was common to baton the billhook to split small amounts of wood. I've seen a video about norwegian peoples living on a montainside, and they were splitting their firewood by hammering the billhook. Also here in France, on the porch of rural houses, I've seen billhooks resting near splitting logs, I guess it wasn't just to give a picturesque look. Recently I've bought on a flea market a billhook with a very wide blade and not much curve, and the back clearly shows sign of hammering. Not batonning, hammering. So it's really bullshit to say it's improper to baton: in the old days ot was pretty common to the contrary. Some modern knives, too hard and not tough enough, can't. Improper tools for improper peoples.

Not only is what you said supported by hammer marks but there is also one big thing that ppl forget. It's easy to say an axe would do it faster. And today it probably would. Hell I'll be honest and say straight that I've never had a chance to use a big knife (ESEE-6 was the biggest one I've used) and you turned me on to getting a billhook.
So when it comes to axes I'm quite proficient. Not the best, but I won't kill myself and I am able to do even some finer tasks. And here is the big but part that ppl seem to forget. The development of the axe. What we have today was developed in the States. Before that they didn't have a poll and that made them less efficient at cutting and my guess is splitting too. Just look at what we today categorize as tomahawks and trade axes. So even with such tools my guess is you'd have to baton or use sth similar to apply extra force so that your wedge (knife, ace, stone, wood or anything else) goes deeper into the material and splits it

[Madnumforce]

Damn Styx, you're right! Splitting axes shaped like wedges are relatively recent, from what I know, maybe mid 19th century. Before that, there wasn't specially built splitting axes, though there was large and heavy axes with heads sometimes up to 5 or 6lbs, but were mostly carpenter's axes used to square logs to make beams. And that something professionnals make clear: a felling axe is not a splitting axe, axes also are specialized tools. The nordic medium sized all-around axe is just one option to split wood, batonning is another. In fact, it seems there even was a specialty tool to split wood: it was a simple straigth blade, with an eye-socket and a perpendicular handle, and in french it's called a "départoir", and "frow" in english. It was especially designed to make wood shingles fast and easy in logs with no knots:

kpOikUgdh4w

[styx]

Even that frow uses batoning.
And yes axes are very specialized tools.If we take that nordic medium sized axe and gave it around 9 out of 10 ppl would just chop and split with it. If we took a big knife and gave it to the same group of ppl my guess is that 7 out of 10 would use it in at least 3 different ways to use it.
Actually someone told me a few years ago that in the great debate axe vs big knife, the axe is the easier tool to start using but the knife is the easier one to master.

Well back on topic with batoning, we talk a lot about places where axes and knives rule. But if we look more at cultures that have adopted the machete as a primary wood processing instrument, they also baton with them. True that most times it's more of hitting with the palm of their hands because it's soft wood but technique wise it's still hitting the spine

[Cliff.Stamp]

Well back on topic with batoning, we talk a lot about places where axes and knives rule. But if we look more at cultures that have adopted the machete as a primary wood processing instrument, they also baton with them. True that most times it's more of hitting with the palm of their hands because it's soft wood but technique wise it's still hitting the spine

It is just a tool, they will do anything with it that needs to be done, cut, chop, dig, split etc. . I had a friend of mine out when I was using a Golok, he was Malaysian and had forged parangs. The blade rippled on limbing which is not an uncommon defect with hollow ground edges, this was on a Valiant. He freaked out and said that if one of his blades did that then the guy would likely throw it at him when he returned it. I guess that forces a fairly decent level of quality control.


Just look at what we today categorize as tomahawks and trade axes. So even with such tools my guess is you'd have to baton or use sth similar to apply extra force so that your wedge (knife, ace, stone, wood or anything else) goes deeper into the material and splits it

Yes, unless you have a dedicated splitting axe then you are going to have to assist split, unless of course you are Bryan :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Dw8MMxqG0

As for axe vs blade in general it depends on the type of wood, and in the situation. If I have a bunch of rounds neatly saw cut where I can stand them up and a decent splitting stump/block then yes axe. However if you are outside and you are splitting up rounds that were cut by a blade/axe then try splitting them with an axe when they are pointy on both ends. It is often times far easier to split them with a knife.

It was especially designed to make wood shingles fast and easy in logs with no knots:


I have used a froe, my grandfather who was a finish carpenter had several. I was away when he died and they were all sold at auction, when I heard the price they fetched I was not sure if I should be upset or amused, someone got a very good deal anyway. They work very well and are much easier to control than a knife because the blade is usually much longer than the wood is long and the handle being perpendicular gives you much more control, you do not get the feedback you can get with knives for example. But they are obviously much more specialized.

[kurodrago]

yes, the only real issue is when they are advertised for such. The main issue is problems in design (square tang/blade transition) or steel/heat treatment which leaves them prone to fracture [color="black"][color="black"][color="red"](often improper soaking which causes carbide fracture nucleation).




My English must be a bit rasty...what "fracture nucleation" means:eek:

In my little experience on baton is this....
I only baton with my 1/4 knive any wood that I come by.
My conclusion is this...more dry is the wood & more easy I will splits it; more resin mixture & water is left in wood & more is difficult to split.
Although the aerodynamics its different between hawk, axe and big knife....I think that the principle still the same.

# dry= easy

# halfway or not dry at all= difficult

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCjGT-wwRUQ

[Cliff.Stamp]

[/color]




My English must be a bit rasty...what "fracture nucleation" means:eek:

Fractures will tend to start (nucleate) at a point of difference, a carbide is just a large irregular part in the steel and the bond between the carbide and the steel itself is very weak (you can easily tear carbides out of an acute edge for example) and thus fractures tend to start and/or run along the edges of carbides. If steels are not properly soaked then the carbides will still be left from the annealing process and they will cause a marked loss in toughness. This is a fairly common cause of toughness problems because manufacturers will under soak steels as it is much cheaper as it allows their furnaces to avoid the high heats which burn them out.



My conclusion is this...more dry is the wood & more easy I will splits it; more resin mixture & water is left in wood & more is difficult to split.

Yes, fresh wood split well, frozen wood splits trivially, seasoned wood is ok as long as the grain doesn't twist, water logged wood does not split, it just bends around the axe and it is an exercise in frustration to split it. Of course the type of wood has a major influence, a piece of water logged clear pine still splits far easier than a piece of knotty black spruce which is freshly cut. Clear open grain woods like pine basically fall apart.

[trooperbrujo]

Fractures will tend to start (nucleate) at a point of difference, a carbide is just a large irregular part in the steel and the bond between the carbide and the steel itself is very weak (you can easily tear carbides out of an acute edge for example) and thus fractures tend to start and/or run along the edges of carbides. If steels are not properly soaked then the carbides will still be left from the annealing process and they will cause a marked loss in toughness. This is a fairly common cause of toughness problems because manufacturers will under soak steels as it is much cheaper as it allows their furnaces to avoid the high heats which burn them out.






Cliff, thank you for the great explanation about carbide tear-out. Clear and to the point.

[wildjim]

The only people that do not baton are the dipshits that buy a knife to put in a glass case or in the drawer and never use it! End of story!

[Cliff.Stamp]

Here is a video showing a very common task on rural farms, note the knives and what is being used for a "baton"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn0UqXSKBAw&feature=related

It is fairly sad these high end survival knives are more fragile than the couple of very crude blades being used there.

[kurodrago]

Cliff, So far I know... billhook as sickle may task was the collection of wheat & and similar material like that before industrialization, Not to Baton?
I don't see no added advantages on the billhook dying design & the hook will get on the way if you chopp with it.
Why the guy is using a hammer?

[Madnumforce]

Billhook and sickles are completly different. During the Middle Age, the scythe was use to cut grass and other herbs to make hay, sickle was used to harvest cereals, and billhook was used to trim hedges and small tree branches. Scythe and sickles have very thin blades, with a supporting ridge/spine to make it stiff, it was sharpened on the field very regularly, and had to keep a good edge. Billhooks are thicker, wider, heavier. There are many many shapes, some with a very proeminent hooks, some were the edge is barely a wave. Some had another hook on the spine, other a back edge. The billhook was one of the most versatile tool of the old days, as well with general and domestic use shapes, than very specilized designs. Batonning with it to split firewood was extremely common, cause it can be done easier and with less effort on the porch of the use than maul or wedge splitting, and by kids and old persons as well. And he's using a hammer simply cause it's more efficient, and the blade withstands it.

Look on this site the hugae variety of shapes, and think about the functions they each can fulfill:
http://www.timelesstools.co.uk/cat_pages.htm
The whole http://www.timelesstools.co.uk/ is very rich of tools of the old days, and that quite an interesting perspective.

[Noss]

.
Why the guy is using a hammer?

And he's using a hammer simply cause it's more efficient, and the blade withstands it.

This is why.

[Cliff.Stamp]

Scythe and sickles have very thin blades, with a supporting ridge/spine to make it stiff, it was sharpened on the field very regularly, and had to keep a good edge.

I would expect there is a lot of local variation. Here the scythes (which have almost all died out) are very thick, they are used (or were) for cutting hay, but they actually have the design of what is commonly made for brush as the blades are very thick at the spine, 3/8"+ . Similar with sickles, they are usually used as harvesting blades, but again all you will find are the heavy spine ones.

Cliff, So far I know... billhook as sickle may task was the collection of wheat & and similar material like that before industrialization, Not to Baton?
I don't see no added advantages on the billhook dying design & the hook will get on the way if you chopp with it.

There is no advantage, however in rural areas they usually have just one large blade and it gets used for everything. They simply don't have the money to devote to specialized tools and this is why in general the blades they do have tend to be thicker so they can handle the more robust work.

This is why even though the scythes used locally were used mainly on grasses they actually had the blades of the brush cutters because they may be used for that and farmers could not afford a scythe for hay cutting and another one for light brush (alders and such).

Thus they just bought the heavier blade and put up with the greater fatigue in grass cutting to prevent the damage that would happen if they tried to use a grass blade on alders (it would get mangled).


Why the guy is using a hammer?

When you use a wood as a mallet the wood deforms under the spine of the knife and this absorbs a lot of the energy. A few years back I measured impacts from wood batons and even using seasoned mallets with fire hardened striking surfaces I would only get in the range of 75-125 ft.lbs. The wide range is due to the type of wood mainly and the length/weight of the baton. However with a hammer you can easily exceed this trivially.

(if ft.lbs doesn't mean anything to you it is very easy to understand. 1 ft. lbs is the energy of impact that a 1 lbs weight will have if dropped from 1 ft. you just multiply the weight by the distance so 100 ft. lbs can be 1 lbs from 100 feet or 10 lbs from 10 feet or 100 lbs from 1 foot, etc. )

If you want to really see this dramatically then take a wood baton and drive a dozen 6" nails into a piece of wood and then do it with a 22 oz framing hammer and just compare the number of hits. The ratio of the hits is the same as the relative impact energies and they will be massively different as the hammer face doesn't deform and thus very little energy is lost in the impact.

You can see the effect that the deformation in the wood baton has if you watch YouTube video's were someone is trying to split a piece of wood with a knot in it. The blade gets stuck and makes no progression because at this point it is easier for the spine of the blade to compress the baton than it is for the edge of the blade to split through the knot. This can not happen if you use a hammer.

As well of course as Noss noted these blades are designed for this type of impact, they are only edge hardened and the spine will just deform if you really smash on it, but that is rarely necessary anyway. I have never seen one broken under impact as it would be like trying to fracture a piece of mild steel, you can hammer it out flat if you want but it is near impossible to actually break/crack.

[kurodrago]

Billhook and sickles are completly different. During the Middle Age, the scythe was use to cut grass and other herbs to make hay, sickle was used to harvest cereals, and billhook was used to trim hedges and small tree branches. Scythe and sickles have very thin blades, with a supporting ridge/spine to make it stiff, it was sharpened on the field very regularly, and had to keep a good edge. Billhooks are thicker, wider, heavier. There are many many shapes, some with a very proeminent hooks, some were the edge is barely a wave. Some had another hook on the spine, other a back edge. The billhook was one of the most versatile tool of the old days, as well with general and domestic use shapes, than very specilized designs. Batonning with it to split firewood was extremely common, cause it can be done easier and with less effort on the porch of the use than maul or wedge splitting, and by kids and old persons as well. And he's using a hammer simply cause it's more efficient, and the blade withstands it.

Look on this site the hugae variety of shapes, and think about the functions they each can fulfill:
http://www.timelesstools.co.uk/cat_pages.htm
The whole http://www.timelesstools.co.uk/ is very rich of tools of the old days, and that quite an interesting perspective.

In Italy the history billhook remains, are very thin..I don't think there meant to baton!
Who baton with an hammer is just stupid or wannabe stupid!
Noss do what he do for testing the knives...but not doubt in my mind..that the hammer will destroy any knife on the way....just matter of time!
The hammer impact with the knife will discover microfractures very quickly.....! With the given time vibration will produce microfractures In any steel and it will break.! much like lateral stress.

[kurodrago]

There is no advantage, however in rural areas they usually have just one large blade and it gets used for everything.

Yep....




As well of course as Noss noted these blades are designed for this type of impact, they are only edge hardened and the spine will just deform if you really smash on it, but that is rarely necessary anyway. I have never seen one broken under impact as it would be like trying to fracture a piece of mild steel, you can hammer it out flat if you want but it is near impossible to actually break/crack.

I've always wondered in the firstplace the difference between battoning with wood or steel?
For a piece of mild steel..you mean a piece of iron without HT?

[dingyu1980]

some specialized cutting tool like japanese kitchen knives are very fragile , you need to pay more attention on using those , but if you treated it more properly , you get more convient back .

so i think batoning or not batong is not important , the most important is how did you think of your blades are/is suited to what kind job her specialized in then treated as what you like .

for the survival knives or tough use knives , batoning is very normal and useful , but if you use it over a long period of time , the steel of the blade would go fatigue which accumulated to the limit of what the steel can take , will cause breaking at last. so if you use a knive and put her beyond the limt that like CLIFF STAMP' busse basic 7 ,died or breaking is inevitable .


the knives are expendable or consumable , not immortal.

[styx]

Guys when talking about a specific design of any cutting tool don't forget the applications. Some tools were for one use only. Some were for more uses and those varied from region to region.
Since billhooks and Italy were mentioned I'll go off that. A billhook that would be used in an agricultural role would vary a lot between places. If I was to use one in continental Croatia, where I actually am, I'd like a thicker spine and a heavier tool with a strong convex edge on it preferably. In the mountains I'd say "fuck it, where's my axe", simply because the forests are thicker, mixed wood and logs are of larger diameter. But going to Adriatic parts, those are arid, with not much vegetation often and even then it's mostly soft wood. So a lighter tool would do the job. And the weight would come in favour because there is a lot of under brush and the terrain is more difficult to negotiate.
Adriatic part of my country is very similar to Italy.

Now I mentioned the roles. This was more of an agricultural role. But lets not forget that at times billhooks were used as weapons too. Here I can't say much but again it's a game between fine slashing and blunt force with penetration. Kinda the sword vs axe type of deal.

[xxo]

don't no nothing about billhooks, but I have seen a lot of old axes that where destroyed by hammering after a failed attempt at splitting something (axe got stuck and someone tried to hammer it out). on old axes it was common to only harden the edge and to leave the rest soft.....on really old axes the heads were iron forged around a steel bit to form the edge. I was lucky enough to learn a little about axes from some old timers who new how to use them and their is no way they would hit them with a hammer or even hammer anything harder than a plastic tent peg unless it had a hardened hammer poll. These guys took very good care of their axes, because it was an important tool, they did not use it for silly abusive things, just like they wouldn't use there rifle barrel as a crow bar or such foolishness. They would even keep their axes inside their jackets when heading out to the woods to keep the axe head warm so it wouldn't chip when they started chopping in cold weather.


don't know about old bill hooks, I am sure they are completely different tools and none of this may apply to them.

[styx]

I can tell you that some of those things probably apply. the Generation of my great grandfathers took such care of all of their tools. Tools meant life back then and were treated as such. Hell my fam used to have a hand forged axe that was good 100 years old. The issue is that I can't find it now because my gramps went a tad off the wagon and forgot to take care of his tools so who knows what happened to it.

[Noss]

Remember the hacking knife ? If your not using it with a hammer your not using it correctly.

http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/2129/home-improvement

[kurodrago]

What upset me the most is how everybody generalize on Net that If a Mora can do it, all the rest of knive's should do it with easily too:jerkit: like what I said the Net.

[Cliff.Stamp]

What upset me the most is how everybody generalize on Net that If a Mora can do it, all the rest of knive's should do it with easily too:jerkit: like what I said the Net.

Mora's are fairly cheap and thus it would be expected of more expensive knives of course it depends on the knife. I would never expect a large brush blade to whittle wood like a Mora, you can't simply grind an edge on a large blade to that acute an angle and keep it from getting damaged.

I can tell you that some of those things probably apply. the Generation of my great grandfathers took such care of all of their tools. Tools meant life back then and were treated as such.

They didn't have the money to replace them. Now people will grind knives and all blades heavily and wear them out quickly, but it could not be that way because they could not replace them and they didn't have that many. For example the local fishermen did not have fillet knives they simply used the knives from the kitchen and the kitchen knives were not bought as long slender blades. A knife started out as a large chef's knife (as that had the maximum amount of steel in the blade) and after a generation that would be slowly transformed into a fillet/bread/carving knife and after another generation it would be a very stout utility knife and then it would end up its life as a very stout paring knife. Usually with at least one handle repair along the way. It is kind of amazing to think that the utility knife I use in the kitchen started as a chef's knife in my great grandfathers kitchen.


don't no nothing about billhooks, but I have seen a lot of old axes that where destroyed by hammering after a failed attempt at splitting something (axe got stuck and someone tried to hammer it out).

The sides blow out usually, they are very thin and not made to take the impacts, only splitting mauls were made to do that. Even splitting axes are generally not intended to take maul impacts. I have seen many though, usually broken when someone was using them for the first time on a loan or someone got far too frustrated.


They would even keep their axes inside their jackets when heading out to the woods to keep the axe head warm so it wouldn't chip when they started chopping in cold weather.

I have heard that many times, that is one for the myth busters. I did that last winter just to see what would happen. Steel conducts heat exceptionally well, the head will very quickly reach the temperature of the outside air. Yes while chopping will friction heat it a little, but if you are chopping all day you can not keep up a rapid pace to generate that much heat. I don't doubt people did that, but I doubt it had any significant effect. Note the edge, as it is so thin and has such a large area/volume ratio, will set to the temperature of the air extremely fast



batoning is very normal and useful , but if you use it over a long period of time , the steel of the blade would go fatigue which accumulated to the limit of what the steel can take , will cause breaking at last. so if you use a knive and put her beyond the limt that like CLIFF STAMP' busse basic 7 ,died or breaking is inevitable .

Yes, that knife took two years with my brother who used it that much that the knife went from a basic 7 to a basic 5. Busse put up the pictures on his forum himself, the difference between what it started out as and what it ended up as were extreme. He used to hammer split with it all the time, he was a carpenter and had a hammer handy always and it is simply far faster than using a piece of wood. It was also not his knife anyway so he had no real concerns about when it wore out and he knew he could get another one any time he wanted for the same price (nothing).






I've always wondered in the firstplace the difference between battoning with wood or steel?

For the user? It is far easier with a metal hammer for the same reason it is harder on the knife, the impact energies are far greater, like double easily. If it is ok with the knife depends on the knife, primarily how it is hardened.


For a piece of mild steel..you mean a piece of iron without HT?

Yes, pure iron with very little carbon so it can not be hardened, they are just hot or cold rolled to impart strength through formation of dislocations in the steel.

[kurodrago]

For the user? It is far easier with a metal hammer for the same reason it is harder on the knife, the impact energies are far greater, like double easily. If it is ok with the knife depends on the knife, primarily how it is hardened.


You mean that depends the HT if il crack or Not? Don't HT steel have a perimeter of absorbing vibrant energy before breaking?



Yes, pure iron with very little carbon so it can not be hardened, they are just hot or cold rolled to impart strength through formation of dislocations in the steel.

Iron have much less crystal structure than HT steel....Its the difference between breaking & bending...this is why iron will not break?

[styx]

I have heard that many times, that is one for the myth busters. I did that last winter just to see what would happen. Steel conducts heat exceptionally well, the head will very quickly reach the temperature of the outside air. Yes while chopping will friction heat it a little, but if you are chopping all day you can not keep up a rapid pace to generate that much heat. I don't doubt people did that, but I doubt it had any significant effect. Note the edge, as it is so thin and has such a large area/volume ratio, will set to the temperature of the air extremely fast


Don't know about other places but there was a certain trick. Here ppl had 4 or 5 layers on their upper body. The thing was to put it between the third and the second. Upper 2 layers got removed when doing sth like chopping or splitting. If it was over night the metal was close to the fire to keep it warm.

[Madnumforce]

Yes, pure iron with very little carbon so it can not be hardened, they are just hot or cold rolled to impart strength through formation of dislocations in the steel.

True, but I would simply call it "work hardening", I think it will make it clearer for most. And for people who could aford it, there was also cementation, to keep the core soft, but the sides (maybe not up to the spine) a bit harder. And it seems from various reports that's how the Merovingians made their scramasaxes: a small wedge/layer of mid or high carbon steel for the edge, and the sides cemented (more near the edge, less near the spine). I even think the charcoal blue seen on some old revolver frames was some kind of light cementation.

[trooperbrujo]

Roman Landes, a well respected metallurgist from Germany, once told me that blades made of lower carbon content steel, i.e., 1055-1084, were less prone to cracking in extreme cold conditions due to the lack of large carbides.
I have of yet not tested this, but I know that Roman also told Rick Marchand about this.
I'm sure that Rick has tested this theory out by now. He posts here once in a while, so maybe he will chime in.

[Cliff.Stamp]

Roman Landes, a well respected metallurgist from Germany, once told me that blades made of lower carbon content steel, i.e., 1055-1084, were less prone to cracking in extreme cold conditions due to the lack of large carbides.

Yes, carbides are a source of crack nucleation and propagation. They work and behave in steel just like rock does in concrete. Just mix concrete with a very high amount of rock and watch what happens to the strength and toughness. If the rock content is extremely high there isn't even enough binder to hold it together and you can brush out the rocks by hand.

The carbide content is effected by both carbon (which is in all carbides) and the alloy content. Thus for example 12C27 has very little carbide due to teh exact ratio of carbon and chromium and the carbides it does form are very small. The edge thus has what Landes calls "high stability" meaning it takes and holds a very high polish for a long time.

Landes caused no end of confusion when he first started posting as people could not separate what he was talking about from edge holding in general. He would note for example D2 was poor at edge holding, he was talking about a high polish at an edge angle of < 10 degrees per side.

For reference :

ATS-34 (traditional ingot):

http://upload.review33.com/images/201005/201005302013193483.jpg

ATS-34 (powder metallurgy) :

http://upload.review33.com/images/201005/201005302014159665.jpg

13C26 (traditional ingot) :

http://upload.review33.com/images/201005/201005302015029083.jpg

Note even when made by powder metallurgy (CPM for example), ATS-34 still has large clumping carbides of up to 15 microns in size. In comparison, 13C26 which is the high carbide version of the Sandvik knife steels has carbides which are much finer 1-3 microns. This means that 13C26 will both take and keep a higher push cutting sharpness (high polish). The difference is just as dramatic as you would expect from the pictures. The carbon and chromium content in 13C26 is exactly balanced at 0.7 and 13% to achieve this carbide volume and dispersion.

Note the other Sandvik steels like 12C27 have such fine carbides that you almost can't even see them at the same magnification.


there was also cementation, to keep the core soft, but the sides (maybe not up to the spine) a bit harder.

Case hardening, yes, commonly used to make files and often used in forging of parangs and such from low quality steel.

Don't know about other places but there was a certain trick. Here ppl had 4 or 5 layers on their upper body. The thing was to put it between the third and the second. Upper 2 layers got removed when doing sth like chopping or splitting. If it was over night the metal was close to the fire to keep it warm.

Yes, people did it here as well, it is common. My only point is though that while they did it, there is no way it actually worked as metal conducts heat exceptionally well and the edge will almost instantly reach the temperature of the air. You can even find this advice in "The Axe Book", which is essentially the bible for axe selection, use and maintenance.

You mean that depends the HT if il crack or Not? Don't HT steel have a perimeter of absorbing vibrant energy before breaking?

Yes, it takes a certain amount of energy to start a crack from initiating. How much so depends on the type of steel and the hardening. How many hammer heads for example every split and they are used to hit nails, concrete, etc. all day long. For knives, most of them are on the brittle side when compared to hammers and such, but some of them are made out of the same steels and have similar tempers. The spine on traditional khukuris for example is actually tougher than hammer heads. There is also nothing stopping anyone from making a knife out of something like S7 which is steel used in industrial jack hammer heads, good luck trying to crack that by hitting it with a two pound hammer.

[Madnumforce]

Wow, nice pictures! Where did you get it from?

[xxo]

it is no myth that steel gets brittle at low temps, maybe the practice kept the blades from chipping out early in the AM when it was colder, maybe the blades warmed up a little by friction and maybe some people put them back under their jackets whenever they took a break, maybe it didn't work all of the time but it probably worked to some extent.....remember that axe work was how a lot of people used to make their living and they probably knew a lot more about these things than we think we know today.

[MarcoMontana]

All knives aren't built for Batoning, however ALL knives that label themselves Survival, Camping, Woodsman, Military Spec, Ranger , Army, etc..... MUST!!!! be able to baton if in the event it is necessary. (Period)


If its a survival knife its a master of none and a utility of all, as far as sawing and chopping with and Axe ./ Hatchet, folding Saw etc. Who finds themselves in an emergency with everything they could possibly need? If so than its not an emergency anymore now is it!

[MarcoMontana]

it is no myth that steel gets brittle at low temps, maybe the practice kept the blades from chipping out early in the AM when it was colder, maybe the blades warmed up a little by friction and maybe some people put them back under their jackets whenever they took a break, maybe it didn't work all of the time but it probably worked to some extent.....remember that axe work was how a lot of people used to make their living and they probably knew a lot more about these things than we think we know today.


I disagree, Swords dipped in Liquid Nitrogen shattered opposed to normal temps. Therefore temperature changes the structural integrity of the alloys molecules.

[Old Spice]

Dipping in Liquid Nitrogen shocks the steel from rapid temperature change, causing fractures to form around grain structure as they have rapidly contracted. Hence why any quality cryo treatment is a long process that slow brings the knife down to the desired temperature.

xxo is talking about steel that hasn't gone through a cryo treatment and is exposed to cold weather. It become brittle supposedly because of the crystals comprising the grain change in some fashion.

[Cliff.Stamp]

Wow, nice pictures! Where did you get it from?

Roman Landes, I posted them with his permission years ago, they are now copied all over the net.

it is no myth that steel gets brittle at low temps, maybe the practice kept the blades from chipping out early in the AM when it was colder, maybe the blades warmed up a little by friction and maybe some people put them back under their jackets whenever they took a break, maybe it didn't work all of the time but it probably worked to some extent.

It isn't a myth that toughness is dependent on temperature I agree. It is a myth however that keeping an axe under your shirt effects its toughness in use in cold temperatures. Not only have I done it, far more than necessary to know if it works, to far greater detail than I would suspect most who would repeat it, it is simple physics. Steel has a very high conductivity and will very quickly reach the surrounding temperature. You don't have to take my word for it, just take an axe out in -20 and see if you can keep the bit warm in use.

It isn't like you are going to keep putting it back under your coat for example when you are walking around the tree to the next one, moving the felled wood, or even just walking around the tree itself. Just think after felling a tree, and then checking the next one for lay and deciding how to cut the notch to control the desired fall, would the axe be constantly moved in and out of your coat? Are you actually swinging that fast without a stop and able to maintain that pace all day long? I never saw anyone do that and I grew up around people who cut wood to burn and I have done it myself with an axe for a winters wood more than once.

All knives aren't built for Batoning, however ALL knives that label themselves Survival, Camping, Woodsman, Military Spec, Ranger , Army, etc..... MUST!!!! be able to baton if in the event it is necessary. (Period)

There is this, you look at the way for example that Ron Hood promoted his knife, right away he takes it and splits a big frozen log. The image he is trying to create is exactly as you describe and he does that for a reason, big knives which split wood, shatter bone etc. sell to a large audience and that is what he was trying to achieve. It is not then overly fair or sensible to complain when people take those knives and try to do those things with them.

[mick the welder]

I'm not afraid to baton with an expensive user. And i can confirm it never broke while batoning :D

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/212.jpg

[kurodrago]

I'm not afraid to baton with an expensive user. And i can confirm it never broke while batoning :D

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/212.jpg

My pic its more nicer:p

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/kurodrago/IMG_4846.jpg

[mick the welder]

Ha in the dirt as well.... You just don't care!:D

[Noss]

My mighty FBM by the fire. :D

http://knifetests.com/image/obj1257geo1021pg58p9.jpg

[mick the welder]

Blood hell Noss thats an awesome photo.

[mick the welder]

What could be better than a BM, two BM'S getting cosy by the fire!

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/221.jpg

[GroGuiK]

DAAAAAAMN !!! i would love to have one of thoose knives... sob...:(
:D

[Noss]

Blood hell Noss thats an awesome photo.

Thanks. Took that photo during the FBM field test.

[Noss]

What could be better than a BM, two BM'S getting cosy by the fire!

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz180/scrumpyjack357/221.jpg

Awesome knives !!